Isn't catch wrestling superior to BJJ?

spacetime said:
Brock lost because he got kicked in the midsection.They never had a true grappling clinch because the match was over so quickly. I wouldn't be so quick about Overeem being a world class wrestler.



Blue belt in ITF is nothing to sneeze about?
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No is noT lmfao...
 
For fuck's sake @spacetime put down yer dollar store Mark Hatmaker books and pick up a pint. Lighten the fuck up, it's Christmas...
 
I haven't read the rest of the thread but I'll say this. I think catch emphisizes some things in regards to grappling that can make it more useful for modern MMA than BJJ. They focus more on their take downs and will work diligently to get back to their feet if taken down. This makes them better at riding opponents who don't want to be underneath them. This is also emphasized by the ability to win via pin. Obviously the lack of gi and open rule set makes it applicable in a few other ways too.

With that said BJJ certainly provides it's own unique advantages. IMO the gi sharpens your defensive skills because it's a much slower game and you have more attacking options. It obviously creates very strong positional grapplers as well with nearly impassable guards at the higher levels. Also the honest truth is there's simply more high level BJJ guys than there are high level catch guys. It's hard to get very good if you don't have very good partners to train with.

Overall style wars are silly though. No successful prize fighter trains only 1 thing anymore.
 
I know I shouldn't reply to someone who's either a troll or (more likely) a 12-year old, but I feel like I have to.

What makes BJJ unique among grappling styles is not the submissions, not the gi, not the takedowns (or lack of) and not the way it's been promoted by the Gracies. What makes BJJ stand out is the positional hierarchy, the emphasis on controll, and to seek position first and submission last. This develops a strong defensive fundament. In contrast, the purpose of catch is to get whatever submission that's avalible as fast as possible, therefore the full name catch-as-catch-can. This generally makes the catch wrestler very dangerous offensively, but also very vurnable when things doesn't go his way. The obvious example is UFC 1 where Ken Shamrock loses top position by throwing himself at Royce's leg, and then gives up his back and gets choked out. This is why BJJ is hands down the best style to learn for average people wanting to be able to defend themselves. Top athletes is obviously a different story,
 
Turtlepawah said:
I know I shouldn't reply to someone who's either a troll or (more likely) a 12-year old, but I feel like I have to.

What makes BJJ unique among grappling styles is not the submissions, not the gi, not the takedowns (or lack of) and not the way it's been promoted by the Gracies. What makes BJJ stand out is the positional hierarchy, the emphasis on controll, and to seek position first and submission last. This develops a strong defensive fundament. In contrast, the purpose of catch is to get whatever submission that's avalible as fast as possible, therefore the full name catch-as-catch-can. This generally makes the catch wrestler very dangerous offensively, but also very vurnable when things doesn't go his way. The obvious example is UFC 1 where Ken Shamrock loses top position by throwing himself at Royce's leg, and then gives up his back and gets choked out. This is why BJJ is hands down the best style to learn for average people wanting to be able to defend themselves. Top athletes is obviously a different story,
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Catch guys also have great defense, they are not morons. While is true the gi gives you better escapes, it is also true that you may not need such good escapes when not using a gi.

Anyways I don't know that much about catch history, but it seems Japanese catch is somehow different, it is way more aggressive than the American counterpart. Japanese guys pulled guard lots of times, watching daisuke Nakamura fight was pretty awesome. On the other hand, you have the English/American counterpart that will bleed from inside if you even suggest to them pulling guard...
 
Pierced7681 said:
I dunno if I agree about catch wrestlers not knowing how to pass guard because there being no guard in catch wrestling.

Josh Barnett, saku, Tamura, funaki, all catch wrestlers who know how to pass guard. Ken and frank shamrock both understood the guard and they weren't bjj guys.

Mighty Mouse is the same.
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Barnett does, but he's done a lot of BJJ. And I don't think Saku did at all. His typical approach to the guard was to stomp or try to literally jump over it with punches.

From what I've seen, the pure Catch approach to dealing with guard is to leg lock against the open guard, and to just be happy against the closed guard because you're pinning the guy so he's losing. The fact that some of them have a better understanding of the guard I believe to be due more to cross pollination with BJJ, but one of the problems with Catch is that it's so rare there's no authority or real historical record to say what does and doesn't constitute a valid Catch technique. You can say 'oh yeah, there's an old Farmer Burns book where he shows a knee slice' but unless it's an emphasized part of the art I don't really count it. Most BJJ schools teach some takedowns, does that mean takedown proficiency is part of BJJ? I'd say it's (sadly) not, as evidenced by the fact that BJJ guys have for the most part shitty takedowns.

My general feeling is that judging any art by its practitioners in MMA is really hard, because anyone who is good at MMA is drawing from a lot of different traditions and coaches. The most you can say is that some technique from an art works in a real fight under a specific set of conditions. Which is not nothing, but it's not going to be an endorsement or dismissal of an entire art on its own. Only by looking at what works for a lot of people in a lot of fights at a high level do I think you can start to say that an art either does or doesn't work in MMA. Wrestling clearly does, BJJ clearly does, boxing, MT, they clearly do. Karate, Judo, and Catch I think we could say that having a limited sample size, they work for people who have trained them in a certain way.
 
But Shamrocks base when entering UFC1 wasn't Catch Wrestling. He crosstrained a bit in submissions, but he was by no means a grappler
 
spacetime said:
But Shamrocks base when entering UFC1 wasn't Catch Wrestling. He crosstrained a bit in submissions, but he was by no means a grappler
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He was the definition of a catch wrestlers Einstein, he trained under funaki.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
He was the definition of a catch wrestlers Einstein, he trained under funaki.
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Then why did he look completely clueless against Gracie, and said in an interview that he thought to himself afterwards: I have to learn this!
 
spacetime said:
Then why did he look completely clueless against Gracie, and said in an interview that he thought to himself afterwards: I have to learn this!
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Becuae he wasn't used to the gi, and eventhough he got choked by a rnc, he thought it was a gi choke.

Instead of coming out with assumptions of your own and type stupid shit like "shamrocks were no grapplers" use Google, it's quite useful
 
BJJ_Rage said:
Becuae he wasn't used to the gi, and eventhough he got choked by a rnc, he thought it was a gi choke.

Instead of coming out with assumptions of your own and type stupid shit like "shamrocks were no grapplers" use Google, it's quite useful
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I assumed it because he looked like a wrestler who never grappled a day in his life. That match lasted 5 seconds.
 
American folkstyle descends directly from subsidiary folkways of carnival wrestling around the country, including Farmer Burns Iowan school of wrestling, that coalesced into the collegiate system under Raymond G. Clapp.

Therefore, Catch Wrestling is the most popular style in the UFC right now.
 
spacetime said:
I assumed it because he looked like a wrestler who never grappled a day in his life. That match lasted 5 seconds.
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Since when a wrestler (folk Greco or freestyle) not considered a grappler?
 
Uchi Mata said:
Barnett does, but he's done a lot of BJJ. And I don't think Saku did at all. His typical approach to the guard was to stomp or try to literally jump over it with punches.

From what I've seen, the pure Catch approach to dealing with guard is to leg lock against the open guard, and to just be happy against the closed guard because you're pinning the guy so he's losing. The fact that some of them have a better understanding of the guard I believe to be due more to cross pollination with BJJ, but one of the problems with Catch is that it's so rare there's no authority or real historical record to say what does and doesn't constitute a valid Catch technique. You can say 'oh yeah, there's an old Farmer Burns book where he shows a knee slice' but unless it's an emphasized part of the art I don't really count it. Most BJJ schools teach some takedowns, does that mean takedown proficiency is part of BJJ? I'd say it's (sadly) not, as evidenced by the fact that BJJ guys have for the most part shitty takedowns.

My general feeling is that judging any art by its practitioners in MMA is really hard, because anyone who is good at MMA is drawing from a lot of different traditions and coaches. The most you can say is that some technique from an art works in a real fight under a specific set of conditions. Which is not nothing, but it's not going to be an endorsement or dismissal of an entire art on its own. Only by looking at what works for a lot of people in a lot of fights at a high level do I think you can start to say that an art either does or doesn't work in MMA. Wrestling clearly does, BJJ clearly does, boxing, MT, they clearly do. Karate, Judo, and Catch I think we could say that having a limited sample size, they work for people who have trained them in a certain way.
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Great post, though I think bjj itself was created through cross pollination right?

Bjj stole from Japanese jiu jitsu, judo and catch wrestling.
 
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