Is Wing Chun really that ineffective?

rengo

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Wing Chun is a very popular style of kung fu from Southern China. By now, almost everyone knows what it is. The idea is to punch in the shortest distance between you and your opponent, no wasted movement, efficient, and also using enemy's power to your advantage.

I have seen so many videos and Wing Chun does indeed look fine and seems to work as a decent, solid choice for self defense.

Yet just as many, are people who bash Wing Chun and say it is ineffective.

Please, let's have a civil and mature discussion, no need for Wing Chun hate thread here, criticizing is fine but please provide a solid ground for that. Let's have a healthy and civil discussion on whether or not WC is effective. Please dont say "it depends on the practitioner" even though it is true....

Thanks sherdog!
 
Hi there, you must be new to sherdog seeing as this is your first post. This thread has been done to death a million times.

You're going to receive the following things:
1) A Flame War
2) Dishonest Answers
3) Some war stories

You're also going to hear these arguments:
Wing Chun doesn't work because its TMA and TMAs aren't practical to modern day fighting
Wing Chun doesn't work because they don't spar properly and practise complicated and innefficient moves without knowing whether they work on a person or not
Wing Chun can work if you know how to apply it effectively and its the person not the art.

And the truth is somewhere in the middle of all three. Wing Chun doesn't really work effectively for a miriad of reasons, but that's not to say that someone can't make it effective but usually they won't.

And also:
Asking for a mature and civil discussion on sherdog is like asking for pork at a bar mistvah. It's just not gonna happen.
 
The idea is to punch in the shortest distance between you and your opponent, no wasted movement, efficient, and also using enemy's power to your advantage.
Because this 'idea' is just horseshit.
 
First, I know very little about Wing Chun. Here's what I do know - until there are full contact Wing Chun tournaments/training/sparring, people who train Wing Chun will never be as effective as people who train in martial arts that do full contact.

I also know that martial arts supposedly designed for purely self defense are not necessarily effective for full contact sporting events. Mostly, because self defense training is based on dealing with the sudden and unexpected attack with a sudden and unexpected response. Sporting events are premised on the idea that both individuals know the other guy is coming, they know what his plan of attack is going to be and they know it's not really life and death. Small differences that make a big difference in how you apply your particular martial art.
 
Ya wing chun is shit. Train a real martial art like judo instead. Useful for real life and sport. Some dude steps up you grab him by the collar and footsweep him onto the pavement. Game over.
 
In my first few lessons of sparring at my new dojo; I inadvertently did some wing chun lol.

I've never done wing chun in my life but have dabbled in yiquan but somehow I ended up trapping/jamming up both of my partners arms - mind you this was full contact karate sparring. My sparring partner was confused and so was I lol - if you asked me to do it again, I don't know if I could --- but it makes me think that people's perception of wing chun might be negatively skewed and there is more value in it than meets the eye.


Also Andymabobs hit the nail on the head.
 
My Muay Thai uses some Wing Chun hand trapping techniques, alongside kali and all sorts of shit. The guy is tiny and possibly the most dangerous guy I know, but thats mostly because of the Muay Thai. Bits of Wing Chun no doubt have value, but I don't think the art as a whole the way it is most commonly taught has much value.
 
If it's good enough for Chinese undercover police, it's good enough for me.
 
using enemy's power to your advantage.!

Also this right here is horse shit. Sure it can be done, and possibly the best example is Judo, but mostly when people say this its to back up claims that the art allows anyone to take on people much larger than them, and that sets alarm bells off for me.
 
Also this right here is horse shit. Sure it can be done, and possibly the best example is Judo, but mostly when people say this its to back up claims that the art allows anyone to take on people much larger than them, and that sets alarm bells off for me.

I was thinking this same thing. Most martial arts include the claim "use your opponents strength against him" but I rarely see to except with maybe judo and BJJ as the exception. Even then it's more of a "push them, as they push back, pull and execute" type of stuff.
 
How many people are getting results with Wing Chun in MMA?

There's your answer.

to be fair there it wasnt so long ago we said the same of karate/tkd style techniques
 
Wing Chun is a very popular style of kung fu from Southern China. By now, almost everyone knows what it is. The idea is to punch in the shortest distance between you and your opponent, no wasted movement, efficient, and also using enemy's power to your advantage.

I have seen so many videos and Wing Chun does indeed look fine and seems to work as a decent, solid choice for self defense.

Yet just as many, are people who bash Wing Chun and say it is ineffective.

Please, let's have a civil and mature discussion, no need for Wing Chun hate thread here, criticizing is fine but please provide a solid ground for that. Let's have a healthy and civil discussion on whether or not WC is effective. Please dont say "it depends on the practitioner" even though it is true....

Thanks sherdog!

I have only encountered Wing Chun once. The person taught it out of his mc dojo but I really don't know how good he was.

What I can tell you was I was able to arm drag him, got his with a firemans, and able to pick him apart with single legs.

I have no clue if he was a good representative of the sport or not but I was not impressed with what I saw from this person.
 
This topic has been covered a few times, but seeing as you're new, I'll copy and paste my thoughts on it (which I had written some time ago):

"Anyway, a bit about myself first: I won't say I'm a Wing Chun pro, but I do have experience with it. I've trained with Chris Chan, an live-in student to Ip Man and sihing to Bruce Lee, and I've discussed technique with and also sparred a number of Wing Chun practitioners before (including practioners from Hong Kong and China, with whom I have no communication gap as I speak Chinese as well ). My Muay Thai training started in 2003 with a certain formerly large camp that also happens to manufacture equipment and promote fights at Lumpinee, and my primary trainer was a two-time Lumpinee champ and one-time Rajadamnern champ with ~350 pro fights under said camp's banner. I don't have any meaningful competition experience, but I have been to the old Lumpinee Stadium, visited Petchyindee Academy, and have contacts at Saengmorakot and FA Group gyms. In terms of striking, I also have experience cross-training with Kyokushin Kaikan, Enshin Kaikan, and World Oyama Karate (all full contact karate schools), Chen-style Tai Chi (and a bit of Yang style too), Queensbury rules boxing, and a touch of Choy Li Fut.

From my experiences, I have the strong opinion that Wing Chun is a fundamentally flawed system. It's designed to be effective in only a very niche range, namely the range between clinching and what typical stand-up fighters consider a typical striking range. All the fancy blocks and parries in the "sticky hands" range are neutralized by several things: 1.) good, strong straight attacks inside "the pocket" like jabs, crosses, knees, teeps/front kicks, etc., 2.) powerful long range strikes outside of their effective range like round house kicks, front kicks/teeps, or Thai-style "long knees", 3.) lateral/circling movement like tai sabaki that flow into round house kicks or crisp hooks, 4.) a strong clinch game with knee and elbow strikes, 5.) takedowns, either from shooting or clinching. Wing Chun's over-reliance on perfect parrying and trapping to the detriment of practicing simple and effective blocking is a danger to themselves, and the linear nature of the style's footwork further magnifies its flaws in ranging.

Furthermore, Wing Chun professes to develop good internal power, but the insistence of the majority of practitioners to refuse to pivot their bodies into strikes (that is, commit to them) causes a failure to generate enough power to cause knockdown or knockout. Reliance on dan tian alone without proper body mechanics amounts to martial mythology in my opinion, unlike the combination of dan tian use with proper physiological movement as seen in karate and especially Tai Chi (particularly the fa jing of Chen-style Tai Chi). Even in Muay Thai, Thai trainers will encourage you shout and tighten your abs while using hip movement to generate force with all strikes. Wing Chun's reliance on chain punching is more a nuisance than a threat, and fighters who are trained to receive any sort of hard impact are unlikely to be phased. Not to mention that a stiff jab or 1-2 will neutralize any hope of chain punching finding its mark, and even a decent shell guard will prevent you from being overrun. With both their offense and their defense neutralized, what often happens is that Wing Chun practitioners can be overpowered and overrun by nak muay, kickboxers, knockdown karateka, and other full contact standup fighters. Even if Wing Chun were to be practiced with hard, non-compliant sparring, like I said before, their body mechanics, especially when combined with their footwork and ranging, are fundamentally flawed and the only possible evolution I could see happening would essentially depart from Wing Chun's very foundation (see: Jeet Kune Do).

In conclusion, it is my opinion that Wing Chun talks a strong game but is only effective against those with no martial arts experience. I would say that it would not even be effective against a tough barroom brawler a la David "Tank" Abbott. What gives Wing Chun its mystique is its long history and the ability of its long-time practitioners to sell themselves through a combination of tall tales, parlor tricks, and opportunism. The verdict: Wing Chun may give you a split second to run away from a fight, and sometimes that's enough. For anything more, seek another style. The only other benefit I can see in Wing Chun is that it can be used as an effective form of cardiovascular exercise that anyone can do regardless of age or shape."
 
A guy I trained with, saamag, used it quite effectively within the context of the various arts he trained; I have seen him use it in grappling...muay Thai..boxing...mma sparring, and then clearly explain how he used it and why it worked.

His impression of most wing chin guys is they can't fight...and don't train to fight; based on what I have seen its an art that is situationally effective...and works well to supplement another art.


Another guy I sparred with had trained wing chin...but fought with more of a karate type style...lead leg attacks...side kicks..spin kicks...front kicks. As well as using range..footwork similar tkd a karate type style of combat.

But I had seen him spar kickboxers and muay Thai and mma types and CLEARLY pull off wing chin techniques within the context of his approach to sparring.. parrying strikes..pinning guys arms to land strikes...getting sweeps off of parries..or closing distance off of parries and getting in to sweep or trip guys.

Alot of guys said he wasn't doing wing chin..but karate...he clearly stated and explained what particular tech he used that was wing chin..and the theory behind how it worked and why.
 
Alot of things that didn't work with the typical wing chin footwork
..approach..worked very well when he mixed it in with karate type footwork distance management and timing ....

And I have seen other guys who use other styles as their main art but have a b/g in wing chin and mix it in with the main art they use and like the other two they can explain the tech
..how it works and why.

http://lyteburly.com/2013/10/26/merging-boxing-and-wing-chun/

This is an example...of the idea I speak of...
 
Also this right here is horse shit. Sure it can be done, and possibly the best example is Judo, but mostly when people say this its to back up claims that the art allows anyone to take on people much larger than them, and that sets alarm bells off for me.

best way to use someones weight against them is to let them walk into your fist lol
 
Wing Chun works great against fat women who can't run fast.
 
The question I always ask Chunners is why didn't WC win any early MMA events?

There was plenty of opportunity in the first few years of UFC and Vale Tudo for WC to demonstrate it's effectiveness.

The fact is that there has never been a WC champion ever in MMA. I can't think of a clear WC victory in MMA nonetheless a champion who has represented the style.

The common and predictable rebuttal is that MMA has rules whereas WC is designed for teh street! Too dangerous!

If you point out that the only rules in early MMA were no eye gouging and biting, they will respond by saying how important eye jabs are and that they are trained to smash, rip, and kill whereas MMA is just sport after all and the true spirit of martial arts is not sport.
 
First, I know very little about Wing Chun. Here's what I do know - until there are full contact Wing Chun tournaments/training/sparring, people who train Wing Chun will never be as effective as people who train in martial arts that do full contact.

Wing Chun do have some full contact tournaments. However, they tend to look more like karate point sparring where both guys run at each other throwing a flurry of straight punches and the more aggressive guy usually wins. But then again I have seen that in some kickboxing tournaments too.

I like wing chun. I think it is a good system and like any system it has strengths and advantages. If you fight a wing chun fighter in accordance with their strengths then you are in trouble. But if you fight them in accordance with their weaknesses then they aren't too bad. Saying that, isn't the same thing true of every fighter within every style?
 
Id say its more so ineffective because its probably been bastardized more so than other arts. same thing happened to tai chi, tkd, etc,etc
 
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