Is there an orthodox Lomachenko?

[Sinister]

Gonna get philosophical for a min, hang with me, it will make sense I promise.

There's is no ideal proponent of a style. Tyson is not peekaboo, Floyd is not Philly shell, and Archie more is not cross arm. Everybody is a degree of what works for them. It the same way that there is no "chair", there are different chairs, and people know what chairs are, and if I said find the nearest chair you could find one, the is no ideal "chair".
Guys that argue over what style he is, or who xxx ripped off don't understand. If you look in the gear and equipment forum, Topboxer is making some killer "inspired by Winning gloves". That doesn't mean that Winnings are better, that meant that he's in that genre and is destroying. Style is only defined is what you can do. Brendan Ingal's guy's all had a similar style, but you wouldn't confuse the silhouette, because they all tried to maximize there strengths.

I disagree with this. And IMO this completely undermines the idea of "training"...it's this kind of mentality that allows people to "sort of" replicate a tried and true form of fighting and be dismissive of it's essential fundamentals because "I'm just doing me, what works for me"...Andre Berto and Adrien Broner get beat up every time they drop their lead hand and try to replicate the Crab defense, because they were not taught it. Fighting is not sitting in chairs, sitting in chairs doesn't take a tremendous amount of work or a mind for your own safety. Floyd Mayweather Jr. was ABSOLUTELY taught a particular style of fighting since childhood, molded by his Father. Did he distill it to suit himself? Absolutely. But that doesn't negate the countless hours of teaching his Father put in, remove that and the rest is likely to crumble. Mike Tyson was ABSOLUTELY taught a honed style that Cus D'Amato taught to two other World Champions and he himself said it was FULLY refined by Tyson's time. D'Amato trained other fighters, and he did not teach them this. Archie Moore absolutely used his "Lock"...which he likely picked up from Hiawatha Grey (who was a bare-knuckle Champion). He taught plenty of fighters, his Gym in San Diego still exists, run by his Son Billy. But they did not teach everyone this style. George Foreman and Gilbert Baptist used it in Title fights. They did learn those styles, they were taught them as foundations of how to fight.

I don't think style is merely defined as what you can do, but HOW you do what you can do. Ingle's guys were taught the same fundamentals, that they all had different athletic attributes and methods of applying those fundamentals that they favored personally should never undermine the existence of those principals. This mentality is also why very good fighters often make shitty trainers. Because when it's time to teach someone all they try to do is get them to copy what THEY could do, instead of teaching them everything they were ever taught themselves about fighting, which would enable the student to find their own identity instead of trying in futility to replicate their teacher's abilities.

 

[NAKMUAY18]

You completely disagreed, then agreed with me.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I disagree with this. And IMO this completely undermines the idea of "training"...it's this kind of mentality that allows people to "sort of" replicate a tried and true form of fighting and be dismissive of it's essential fundamentals because "I'm just doing me, what works for me"...Andre Berto and Adrien Broner get beat up every time they drop their lead hand and try to replicate the Crab defense, because they were not taught it. Fighting is not sitting in chairs, sitting in chairs doesn't take a tremendous amount of work or a mind for your own safety. Floyd Mayweather Jr. was ABSOLUTELY taught a particular style of fighting since childhood, molded by his Father. Did he distill it to suit himself? Absolutely. But that doesn't negate the countless hours of teaching his Father put in, remove that and the rest is likely to crumble. Mike Tyson was ABSOLUTELY taught a honed style that Cus D'Amato taught to two other World Champions and he himself said it was FULLY refined by Tyson's time. D'Amato trained other fighters, and he did not teach them this. Archie Moore absolutely used his "Lock"...which he likely picked up from Hiawatha Grey (who was a bare-knuckle Champion). He taught plenty of fighters, his Gym in San Diego still exists, run by his Son Billy. But they did not teach everyone this style. George Foreman and Gilbert Baptist used it in Title fights. They did learn those styles, they were taught them as foundations of how to fight.

I don't think style is merely defined as what you can do, but HOW you do what you can do. Ingle's guys were taught the same fundamentals, that they all had different athletic attributes and methods of applying those fundamentals that they favored personally should never undermine the existence of those principals. This mentality is also why very good fighters often make shitty trainers. Because when it's time to teach someone all they try to do is get them to copy what THEY could do, instead of teaching them everything they were ever taught themselves about fighting, which would enable the student to find their own identity instead of trying in futility to replicate their teacher's abilities.

Yeah I think you really should be taught a proper system if you're going to try to replicate it. If you want to be an opera singer, you need to go through years of training otherwise you'll wreck your voice trying to get to that style. A guy like Broner will mimick Mayweather on the outside, but doesn't have the inside game that makes Mayweather well rounded.

 

[Sinister]

He doesn't do well with it on the outside either.

 

[Sinister]

You completely disagreed, then agreed with me.

No, I didn't.

 

[whooty]

What stands out to me about Lomachenko is just his solid, solid fundamentals. He has great punching technique, sets up his strikes very well and obviously moves and pivots very well. What makes him special is the creativity in taking angles, hand traps, and other setups. They're all relatively 'simple' techniques to learn, but to take them and apply them in a fight like that takes serious talent.

As I think Sinister and Andy already told you, it's nearly impossible to copy everything he does, because what works well for him might not work as well for you. What you can do (if you're already a somewhat decent boxer) is analyse his fight, look at some of the things he does and try them for yourself.

One of the things Lomachenko does, which I like a lot myself and use while sparring a southpaw trainingspartner (I'm orthodox), is using the jab a couple of times, and when he starts covering up a bit, trapping the back hand. He has two great setups from there, he'll then pull the hand from the shell and land the cross or backhand hook, or he'll blindside you with the glove, and pivot towards your blind side, to take a dominant angle and land a combination.

You could even try it as an orthodox fighter by using your cross instead. Now I'm thinking of it, I'm going to try that tonight as well.

But again, it all starts with fundamentals, being able to punch well, to know how to use your feet, pivots, head movement, etc. Almost everything he does is pretty 'textbook' and are things you can learn from any good boxing trainer. But to put everything together like Loma does, that'll take world class dedication and a shitload of talent as well.

What's your experience in boxing, your body build, weight, height, etc? And, do you have video's of yourself sparring?

 

[SoupIsGoodFood]

I've been watching some guys like Lomachenko and Rigondeaux and I am in love with the their footwork, especially when they are turning their opponents and getting crazy angles and positions on them.
I have to ask, are there fighters that can pull off the same sort of positioning and footwork from an orthodox stance that I can study, or is the open stance match up integral to their success?

Orlando Canizales is the only orthodox Lomachenko I can think of.

 

[StopDucking]

Lol why didn't I notice this thread before? Lomachenko uses Tyson's peek-a-boo, Jesus Fucking Christ, I've heard it all.

@Sinister my man, since you mentioned Dimitri Pirog, do you think he would have been king at Middleweight without his injuries? I see him giving Golovkin and Canelo all sorts of trouble.

 

[4daLuLZ]

Is there an orthodox Lomachenko?

I think most Ukranians follow the Eastern Orthodox Christianity church. Lomachenko is also not an uncommon name there.
So yes.....there definitely is an Orthodox Lomachenko around there. Several I bet.

Why .....you starting a club ?

 

[eternaldarkness]

Lots of people, ex. ExpertBoxing, consider Winky as a peekaboo boxer.

not even close. like sinister said, just because they have a high guard and slip to the inside it doesn't make them a peekaboo stylist.

 

[Sinister]

Lol why didn't I notice this thread before? Lomachenko uses Tyson's peek-a-boo, Jesus Fucking Christ, I've heard it all.

@Sinister my man, since you mentioned Dimitri Pirog, do you think he would have been king at Middleweight without his injuries? I see him giving Golovkin and Canelo all sorts of trouble.

Yes

 

[ImmigrantMentality]

I like Lomachenkos style too. I guess you could watch his fights against other southpaw fighters like Gary russell and rigo to pick up on certain tactics to use as a right handed fighter. He was very dominant in both of those matches and he's faced some southpaws in the amateurs as well

 

[Ilk]

First of all Lomanchenko's style is NOT D'Amato's "Peek-a-boo." Let's clear that up. He uses a deceptive high-guard, but the turns and transitions are not the same. The methods of making the turns happen are different.

Secondly, the Eastern Bloc and Cuba did build off of American fighters. That is true, however, with broken lineages in America and continuing expounding on basic principals, it's pretty clear there IS a distinct style to the former USSR and Cuba. They still practice things Americans have since forgotten (like turning, moving the hips, stepping around and not back). As of right now, it's us in the U.S. who could and should learn from them. It's no coincidence many of the best and most fundamentally sound fighters in the World come from the same places again and again. Or that if you scratch the surface of a very good fighter coming from anywhere else, you'll likely find a Cuban or Eastern Bloc trainer at the helm (my own teacher Milke McCallum, his first trainer in Jamaica was Cuban before he met Harry Wiley Sr. through Bunny Grant).

As for orthodox, it does seem that many of the best technical fighters right now are Southpaws. And that many of the best orthodox fighters are instead more big punchers. But it tickles me how people consider Lomanchenko's skill exceptional. As if he's doing some things no one else has ever heard of. You pair ultra-sound fundamentals with speed and intelligence, you get a fighter like him. As he doesn't have say, a left hand like Pacquiao, or even that same level of foot speed (sorry, he doesn't), thus he doesn't get away with slacking on technique so easily. Errol Spence is also a Southpaw, Tevin Farmer, Rigondeaux, Lara, Robiesy Ramirez, Yasnier Lopez, so many of the very very good technical boxers. However, it's not like orthodox fighters who know how to box don't come along:



And it's not as if they never existed (P.S. - THIS was defense before everyone forgot how to teach and started screaming about hands being up):

I was going to say Pirog, but yeah. Guy was insane and I say he is faster than Loma even if heavier.