Is there an orthodox Lomachenko? | Page 2

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Higus, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

    AndyMaBobs
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    I said nothing about knockouts actually, you did. I simply said that stylistically they are not similar. As Sinister (who if you're not informed is a very well respected boxing coach) has backed me up on.

    Also don't assume that I wouldn't value your opinion just because I disagreed with you on one thing you said - that attitude gets you nowhere.
     
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  2. DoctorTaco Breadhead

    DoctorTaco
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    because the dude who makes goofy gifs of a cartoon Tyson jumped in
     
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  3. Sinister Doctor of Doom

    Sinister
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    High guards existed before D'Amato came along. I don't think he meant covering up alone. If that were the case Ali's "rope-a-dope" would technically fit in, so would Archie Moore's "Lock"...anything that involved guarding the face would fit in.

    Student's of D'Amato, when you talk to them, understand that that term came to reference his specific system. Covering up is just covering up, I don't think it warrants being associated with that.
     
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  4. Ilk Yellow Belt

    Ilk
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    So no one actually answered and I need to ask. What and how is Loma doing all that magic with creating insane angles, circling around his opponents? What is his style, how he sets up all that, how do you train all that? Is it all technique or you need to be gifted as him. Can you drill all that and get into a sufficient level for at least self defence or amateur fighting in a low level without being gifted with these fast twich fibers Loma has.
     
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  5. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

    AndyMaBobs
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    I think my answer covered a fair bit of it - it wasn't in depth so I'll re-iterate

    He bumps his opponent a lot - I'd strongly recommend you read this piece:
    http://fightland.vice.com/blog/the-pivots-and-precision-of-vasyl-lomachenko

    Its all technique and training - it's not really fast twitch fibres, keep in mind that he's not particularly fast. Compare him to real speedsters in similar weight ranges to him and you'll see that while he's no means slow, he's not exactly greased lightning like (a lesser skilled boxer) Amir Khan would be

    Your best bet is to watch him train those footwork drills, but being perfectly realistic, unless you have a good coach that values the same techniques that Lomachenko's does - you won't fight much like him. I'm all for self implementation but it's kind of hard to do unless you have a coach who understands the techniques and can come up with more drills for you.

    I've copied a lot of Lomachenko's things like shot selection and baits - as well as things like bumping the opponent to disguise the pivot and using forward moving pivots a lot in general - but I wouldn't say that a stranger would look at me and think I do 'his style'.

    Also - those angles, not really needed for self defence
     
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  6. Sinister Doctor of Doom

    Sinister
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    Your question is not easy to answer, because essentially you're asking how Lomanchenko was built as a fighter. That's a process that took many years and lots of drilling. It's like asking how Tchaikovsky does all that amazing dancing. Holy sh*t those leaps!! How does he do all those steps and turns!? Well, he had an excellent teacher, then did whatever that teacher said. AND atop that, he had whatever athletic gifts he brought to the table. You've already been shown that he's not the only guy on Earth ever to have fought that way, and he's not the only guy who fights that way right now. He just stands out where he is because everyone else around him is not that good at it. Well, except Salido, who beat him (and it wasn't merely weight that won Salido that fight, it was that Salido had been a World Class fighter for more than a decade and Lomanchenko didn't show him anything he couldn't deal with.)
     
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  7. ssullivan80 see....what had happened was

    ssullivan80
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    I think it was more a matter of Salido's "professional" experience vs. Lomo's "amateur" experience. Salido never gave him the chance to show him something he couldn't deal with....... Until late in the fight, when Lomo finally realized he was in a professional match and not an amateur bout. He definitely took that fight to early in his professional career and I don't think it'd play out the same at all at this point. But certainly credit to Salido, IMO if Lomo's second pro fight had been against any other fighter that Lomo has faced since I don't believe he'd have that L on his pro record.
     
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  8. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

    AndyMaBobs
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    Baaaaaaaaaaaalllll puncheeees :D
     
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  9. Ilk Yellow Belt

    Ilk
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    Tnx for the answeres Andy and Sinister. I ve watched some stuff from Loma and understood some of his tactics.
    He trows lots of bullshit hits to make his opponents cover which he uses to either trow a hard to the body or circle around him.
    Loma moves constantly, he bites opponents constantly, he changes levels constantly so this really confuses his opponents.
    He controls a lot in the clinch and he pushesh a lot of his opponents.
    His shuffle steps are insane. His balance is insane. Really an artist.

    However I could not find any of his drills for what he does. Perhaps Andy can help me?

    I watched Salido and Loma and it was a damn dirty match from Salido and the ref was allowing all that. I am not sure Salido would have won with a more strict ref.
     
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  10. NVSemin Orange Belt

    NVSemin
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    I tried to express with few words that you, guys, are philosophers , while I am very practical: how to teach or explain to a fighter how to fight like Lomachenko. I believe with my Tyson analogy both in fighting and training, and adjustments to 0) southpaw 1) weight 2) lots of BS hits like the above author has noticed, I may produce or reproduce his style in practice.
     
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  11. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

    AndyMaBobs
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    Okay, so you're a troll. I get it now.
     
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  12. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

    AndyMaBobs
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    I can certainly try to help.

    Okay, so it's pretty late here in the UK so I'm not gonna get video links or gifs or anything just yet, I'll post them another time!

    What you want to do is practise baiting. So Loma typically drops the hand corresponding with the one he wants the opponent to throw. It's a lot easier to counter a guy, if you trick him into throwing the punch you want to counter.

    So Lomachenko will have both hands either side of his head, then when he wants to bait the jab he lowers his right hand to his chin. As the jab comes he immediately brings his hand back p to his face to catch the jab and he throws the left straight to the target.

    He does the same thing but in reverse for the right hand - he lowers his left and then slips and counters.

    So what you want to do is practise this during slow sparring - find a partner and practise baiting and countering techniques. If you want to brush up on your pivots what you really have to practise is steping forward into the pivot. It takes a bit of courage but you really need to step forward and off centre in order to pivot around your opponent, then throw a body punch/lead hook.

    One balance training drill I've seen him use is to stand in an extremely long stance, almost like a side on sumo squat, and he throws punches there. I've done this as well and I think it works great as a balance workout, it's tiring and also helps you understand your own body positioning more as you throw the punch. I'd also strongly recommend getting two medicine balls of equal size, standing with one foot on each of them (do this barefoot, shoes will make it too hard to grip) and bang away at the bag, you DON'T have to put in full torso rotation into the punches, just smack the bag as hard as you can without falling. If you lose your balance, just step off, have a breather and then get on a try again - do that for about 20 minutes whenever you can. It will probably help you more than the Lomachenko method.

    Clinch wise - Loma does just tend to push his opponents head down and then pivot behind them. That's easy enough to do, just spar with that method of clinching in mind.


    What I would recommend you do is block your training like this - this is to be done ON TOP of what ever your coach already has you do, because if you just try to focus on this you may not brush up your fundamentals enough:

    Week 1- 2: Balance
    Use those balance drills a few times a week for about 20 minutes each

    Week 3 - 4: Pivoting and Clinching
    You'll be getting a lot of pivot training hopefully anyway, because I'm assuming you're in a boxing gym. If not - join one.
    But on top of what you're learning practise stepping towards your opponent and then pivoting off.
    Add those clinch techniques in on the fourth week.


    I want to stress - you're never going to fight like Lomachenko, but this will help you start to use techniques that make him successful. Just don't go into this thinking that you're going to have a 300 - 1 amateur record or anything from this alone.
     
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  13. Sinister Doctor of Doom

    Sinister
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    <45>

    Any time you feel as if you've replicated his style, practically, be it with yourself or student, please bring them down to Johnny Tocco's and we'll conduct and experiment.
     
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  14. Jim Reaper Green Belt

    Jim Reaper
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    I actually watch Lomachenko and Rigondeaux footage mirrored for this very reason.
     
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  15. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
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    ...Lomachenko doesn't fight like Tyson at all. Basically the only similarity is that he freezes guys with pressure and then takes an angle to land free shots. But the way he's taking those angles, the way he freezes people, the way he makes people miss, his punch selection, not Tyson whatsoever. Tyson was a short power hooker who bobbed and weaved constantly and commonly used shifts to set up his power shots. Loma is a distance puncher who primarily moves back and slips to avoid shots (primarily reactively too, as opposed to the often proactive head movement of Tyson) and rarely leaves his southpaw stance. Pretty sure I never saw Tyson set up glove traps either, and that's a staple of Lomachenko when he has someone on the ropes. It's not a very strong comparison.
     
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  16. NVSemin Orange Belt

    NVSemin
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    I disagree with all you, we have different goals in mind, so I guess, just look at the same problem from different angles. No point arguing who is really right here, again, different goals - different methods. I use different terms, emphasise different moves, etc.
     
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  17. PivotPunch Red Belt

    PivotPunch
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    There are 2 versions of Lomachenko the pure boxer who fights on the outside and the midrange boxer puncher. Against Gary Russell he was pressuring a lot and going to midrange despite being taller against Walters as well after the feeling out phase. he also uses shifting punches he just rarely remains in the opposite stance for more than 1 punch.
    Tyson did use glove traps, pretty often even
     
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  18. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
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    I don't think I've ever noticed that from Tyson. Any particular fights he uses them a lot in?
     
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  19. PivotPunch Red Belt

    PivotPunch
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    Not sure about entire fights but i can think of a few instances. But yeah I admit not to the same extent Lomachenko does it and it doesn't look as implemented into his style the way it does with Lomachenko mroe like it's something he does naturally

    [​IMG]

    I think he used it against Holmes sometimes but mostly in small spots.
     
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  20. NAKMUAY18 Purple Belt

    NAKMUAY18
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    Gonna get philosophical for a min, hang with me, it will make sense I promise.

    There's is no ideal proponent of a style. Tyson is not peekaboo, Floyd is not Philly shell, and Archie more is not cross arm. Everybody is a degree of what works for them. It the same way that there is no "chair", there are different chairs, and people know what chairs are, and if I said find the nearest chair you could find one, the is no ideal "chair".
    Guys that argue over what style he is, or who xxx ripped off don't understand. If you look in the gear and equipment forum, Topboxer is making some killer "inspired by Winning gloves". That doesn't mean that Winnings are better, that meant that he's in that genre and is destroying. Style is only defined is what you can do. Brendan Ingal's guy's all had a similar style, but you wouldn't confuse the silhouette, because they all tried to maximize there strengths.
     
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