Is there an orthodox Lomachenko?

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Higus, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. Higus Silver Belt

    Higus
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    I've been watching some guys like Lomachenko and Rigondeaux and I am in love with the their footwork, especially when they are turning their opponents and getting crazy angles and positions on them.
    I have to ask, are there fighters that can pull off the same sort of positioning and footwork from an orthodox stance that I can study, or is the open stance match up integral to their success?
     
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  2. NVSemin Orange Belt

    NVSemin
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    Lomachenko style is a southpaw version of the peekaboo style, so he is nothing but a lightweight Mike Tyson. Rigo footwork ... speaking of orthodox, well, I saw James Toney doing it in some fights, and maybe Willie Pep, .. as the southpaw, I can even recall Pernell Whitaker using some elements.
     
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  3. AndyMaBobs Green Belt

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    Y'know your basement? Well right underneath that.
    Not even slightly peekaboo.

    Lomachenko's style isn't built of peekaboo style ducking and weaving, but off of physically pushing and manipulated his opponent. He shoulder bumps them to disguise when he's about to pivot off to their blind side. Full of baits and guard destructions.

    In answer to TS there isn't really anyone like Lomachenko, hell him and Guillermo Rigondeaux aren't that similar either. Really what Lomachenko does is use the pivots and footwork typically associated with orthodox fighters but as a southpaw. He is a southpaw but there is a lot more to his style than the bog standard step right, spam left straight strategy that southpaws frequently employ.
     
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  4. NVSemin Orange Belt

    NVSemin
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    YDKSAB...

    He is a lightweight ... of course he cannot KO everybody in 1 round like a HW, so his fighting is more like point scoring = still rather amaterish approach, but his style and training was ripped from Mike Tyson 100%.

    I do not want to expand on that for free, because u won't value it anyway. I will do a Breakdown some time later.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  5. Higus Silver Belt

    Higus
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    Thanks for the reply.
    When I mention Loma and Rigo, I mean specifically their ability to pivot and turn their opponents in order to get dominant angles on them.
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  6. Mr Mojo Lane Purple Belt

    Mr Mojo Lane
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    I'd like to see your breakdown. I don't know if you could say 100% Tyson though. Isn't he naturally right handed but fight southpaw so he can have his power hand in front and dominant foot in front to improve footwork? Lomachenko will shoeshine a lot of punches while Tyson put a lot of leverage on everything.
     
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  7. ssullivan80 see....what had happened was

    ssullivan80
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    Oleksandr Usyk and Oleksandr Gvozdyk are both trained (at least to an extent) by Anatoly Lomachenko, Vasyl's father. There are certainly similarities they share stylistically with Lomachenko. That said, they are subtle and not necessarily executed with the same kind of speed, control and fluidity of Vasyl (there's no real comparison in that respect). They both fought on the recent under-card for Lomo's bout and if you watch closely and pay attention to the nuances you'll see a fair amount of similarities in there styles.

    As for fighters of either stance that you could see comparisons to that of Rigo, watch any of the top level Cuban Olympians. Both the Cuban and the Eastern Bloc style of boxing have some very recognizable and distinct elements that you can see (fundamentally speaking) when watching the top level Amateurs/Olympians. Obviously, the lineage of the training in communist countries is extremely refined.
     
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  8. ssullivan80 see....what had happened was

    ssullivan80
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    WTF? Lol......

    Vasyl was coached by his father Anatoly, who was also a coach with the Ukranian Olympic team. Anatoly ran a boxing gym in Akkerman which over the past two thousand years was part of the Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman and Russian Empires....... Vasyl's style is a bi-product of his fathers training (his only trainer since youth) which comes from a long lineage of trainers from the Soviet/Polish school of boxing........ which has a far deeper history than the peak-a-boo style which was developed by D'Amato and really made famous by Patterson, before Tyson. There are some similarities, sure (rising UC's, side to side head movement, blind side attacks), but the boxing lineage and training style taught to Lomachenko is absolutely not a rip-off of the peakaboo style, if anything it'd by default have to be the other way around.
     
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  9. PivotPunch Red Belt

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    I think he meant style wise not the lineage. But then it's also what do you consider peekaboo? Just the high gaurd because then there are many versions of the peekaboo style like Winky Wright, Clottey, Azumah nelson and others.

    But compared to the other high guard styles LOmachenko's peekaboo is the closest thing to the D'Amato peekaboo style.

    And far deeper history? I don't know how far back the lineage of Lomachenko's father goes but Patterson went pro in 1952 and according to Wikipedia D'amato started trainign fighters at least back in 1933.

    Safe to say neither style is a ripoff and certainly not D'Amato's even if the Lomachenko style was around in 1933 somehow in some Soviet boxing school not one would have known in the US
     
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  10. NVSemin Orange Belt

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    Which is a copy-paste from film studies of American pro boxers, mostly Sugar Ray Robinson.
    As far as fighting in the ring is concerned, there is no such thing as "Soviet" style. Soviet school of boxing is about teaching in general and preparation / tune up for the fight, which was different from the US approach during the Iron Curtain time. Not sure it is the case anymore.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  11. Higus Silver Belt

    Higus
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    Had a chance to check them out briefly. I think my real question was how much of Lomachenko's ability to out-position and out-angle his opponents predicated on being a southpaw (or having an open stance match up)?
    It looks like Usyk is a southpaw but Gvozdyk is orthodox. I liked what I saw! He looks very balanced when striking, has technically sound punching mechanics and good movement. I saw flashes of the same ability to pivot and turn his opponents. I'll definitely be checking him out some more.
     
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  12. Sinister Doctor of Doom

    Sinister
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    First of all Lomanchenko's style is NOT D'Amato's "Peek-a-boo." Let's clear that up. He uses a deceptive high-guard, but the turns and transitions are not the same. The methods of making the turns happen are different.

    Secondly, the Eastern Bloc and Cuba did build off of American fighters. That is true, however, with broken lineages in America and continuing expounding on basic principals, it's pretty clear there IS a distinct style to the former USSR and Cuba. They still practice things Americans have since forgotten (like turning, moving the hips, stepping around and not back). As of right now, it's us in the U.S. who could and should learn from them. It's no coincidence many of the best and most fundamentally sound fighters in the World come from the same places again and again. Or that if you scratch the surface of a very good fighter coming from anywhere else, you'll likely find a Cuban or Eastern Bloc trainer at the helm (my own teacher Milke McCallum, his first trainer in Jamaica was Cuban before he met Harry Wiley Sr. through Bunny Grant).

    As for orthodox, it does seem that many of the best technical fighters right now are Southpaws. And that many of the best orthodox fighters are instead more big punchers. But it tickles me how people consider Lomanchenko's skill exceptional. As if he's doing some things no one else has ever heard of. You pair ultra-sound fundamentals with speed and intelligence, you get a fighter like him. As he doesn't have say, a left hand like Pacquiao, or even that same level of foot speed (sorry, he doesn't), thus he doesn't get away with slacking on technique so easily. Errol Spence is also a Southpaw, Tevin Farmer, Rigondeaux, Lara, Robiesy Ramirez, Yasnier Lopez, so many of the very very good technical boxers. However, it's not like orthodox fighters who know how to box don't come along:



    And it's not as if they never existed (P.S. - THIS was defense before everyone forgot how to teach and started screaming about hands being up):

     
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  13. NVSemin Orange Belt

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    He does A LOT of stuff like Mike Tyson, and, I think I heard it in one of his interviews.
    He fights, trains and has built like Mike Tyson: a lightweight version of course. Lomachenko is a short dude with short reach, bulky with good muscles for his weight.

    "The methods of making the turns happen are different." - I dunno whether this is simply due to weight difference or it is the style or... simply because he is the southpaw.


    I am not talking about Cubans.

    My point is this: I have seen not a single technical element done by Soviet amateur (and pro) boxers, which has not been done better and earlier by well-known American fighters. I am not necessarily claiming that Soviet fighters literally stole or adopted all the techniques, no. I do believe lots of the technical elements were developed independently, but again, the questions are who was the first and who did it better?
     
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  14. Sinister Doctor of Doom

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    He can claim he's like Mike Tyson all he wants my man. Joan Guzman used to say the same shit, in fact his ring name was "El Pequeno Tyson"..."the little Tyson." But if you were not taught the actual peek-a-boo system by someone who knows it, then you're using at-best a watered-down version of it. That system is very particular, for each thing, it has distinct answers. Lomanchenko doesn't use those answers. Jose Torres, Floyd Patterson, Kevin Rooney, they did.

    If your point were true, then people would not be remarking about what an amazing fighter Lomanchenko is. Gary Russel Jr. was one of our top-of-the-line Amateurs of the day and he couldn't do diddly-shit with Lomanchenko. I conceded with your point, to an extent. Americans USED to do stuff like that, but it's since faded. Now most American fighters look very similar to each other. Tall, tons of punches, so-so defense, lot of footwork (running around the ring). They look like this kid in the red:



    You'll rarely see anything different nowadays. Every top Amateur I've run across fights like that, or tries to. I mean look at Rau'shee Warren. 3 time Olympian, so-so Pro. Andrade has stepped his game up, but it took a WHILE. Same with Wilder.

    Oh and I threw Cuba in there because the Cubans and Russians built on the same system. The saying goes the Cubans took everything the Russians did and added dancing. That's because they were Cold War allies before the USSR fell. The first boxing trainers brought in by Castro (after most of the high-level fighters defected) were Russian. The entire goal was to beat the U.S. Took a while, but they do now. Hence, this kid:



    Oh and this guy:



    Oh and that guy's Brother:



    Oh and their older Brother who fizzled as a Pro (started too late) but had like 2 or 3 Gold Medals under his belt. Even his light movement is very technical and nice to watch:

     
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  15. Soul Rebel 2 Black Belt

    Soul Rebel 2
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    It continues to confuse me when people point to guys like Clottey, Abraham and Winky as proponents of the peekaboo style, as if they look anything remotely similar to what Cus taught. In fact, its hard to think of more polarised styles.

    look at this



    vs this

     
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    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
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  16. Higus Silver Belt

    Higus
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    FFS, how did this thread become about Tyson?
     
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  17. NVSemin Orange Belt

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    Because Tyson and Guzman were exciting ... and Loma is boring
     
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  18. PivotPunch Red Belt

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    No one ever says they have something similar to Cus' style but Cus calls it peekaboo because of the constant high guard so by that philosophy you can call their styles peekaboo as well just not Cus' version
     
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  19. NVSemin Orange Belt

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    Lots of people, ex. ExpertBoxing, consider Winky as a peekaboo boxer.
     
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  20. PivotPunch Red Belt

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    I don't think expertboxing is the ultimate source of knowledge tbf even if he isn't horrible either and has nicely made videos
     
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