Is there a way to make wrestling exciting without taking tools away from the wrestler?

[wompuscatwilly]

The rules are already heavily favored for wrestling.

Allow knees to the head in the sprawl or a downed opponent.

Score TDD equal to or close to an actual TD.

Issue yellow cards for dry humping.

Also, this myth that because in a street fight a wrestler can just take you down and keep you there. So somehow that’s the end all be all in a real situation is BS. In a street fight I can gouge out your eyes, rip off your ear, bite off your finger, make a vice grip on your boys etc.

The unified rules heavily favor wrasslers

 

[VVarhead]

I've seen more fighters use elbows to prevent a stand up so they can continue their lay-and-pray strategy than I've seen finishes with elbows on the ground.

So you blame elbows because some fighters implement a boring gameplan?
Believe me, guys like Colby would find a way to hold someone down and stall the fight without elbows aswell.

 

[eiyuu]

Another issue is using knees on the ground. I think,this would make it easier for wrestlers to finish fights, but the ufc will never allow it.

Wasn't that the UFC wouldn't allow it. It was banned by athletic commissions when the UFC was trying to get sanctioned by the two major "fighting" athletic commissions--namely NJ and then Athletic Director Larry Hazzard.

And it wasn't even a UFC fight that brought about the banning. It was in the IFC and their HW Champion Gan McGee (remember him?) knee blasting the head of an overmatched Brad Gabriel on the ground in the first ever sanctioned MMA event in NJ (I was in the audience for that one too.)

Hazzard didn't like that one bit seeing Gabriel's head split open like that, so it was removed from the Unified Rules of MMA that he helped draft which became the basis for MMA rules around the country.

Just think, if that fight wasn't on that card or ended differently, we'd probably still have knees to the head of a grounded opponent in MMA!

 

[Hollywood Jack]

I've seen more fighters use elbows to prevent a stand up so they can continue their lay-and-pray strategy than I've seen finishes with elbows on the ground.

Yellow cards would be a better way to limit stalling. Also judging the whole fight and damage rather than 10-point must. I think that's the commonality in Pride having less stalling rather than banning elbows. Along with knees to the head and soccer kicks of course. And while we're talking Pride, might as well add that using Pride gloves would lead to less breaks in action and controversy due to eye pokes.

 

[revoltub]

The rules are already heavily favored for wrestling.

Allow knees to the head in the sprawl or a downed opponent.

Score TDD equal to or close to an actual TD.

Issue yellow cards for dry humping.

Also, this myth that because in a street fight a wrestler can just take you down and keep you there. So somehow that’s the end all be all in a real situation is BS. In a street fight I can gouge out your eyes, rip off your ear, bite off your finger, make a vice grip on your boys etc.

The unified rules heavily favor wrasslers

How does knees on the ground favor the non wrestler? It will favor the wrestler because he will always be in the dominant position.

 

[Raise Your Fist]

bring back headbutts

Coleman would be the GOAT (again)

 

[acannxr]

Issue yellow cards for dry humping

You're assuming referees could properly interpret whether or not a fighter was stalling.

It's for that same reason I think they should change any rule that contains the word "warning". Fence grab, groin strike, eye poke, and any other similar rule should immediately constitute an instant point reduction without warning. It puts less dependency on the competency of the referee.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Yellow cards would be a better way to limit stalling.

yellow cards will never fly in the US. not with state AC hired refs. people need to quit pretending that Pride-like yellow cards are an option for the UFC. they're not.

refs can dock a fighter a point though. very rare. don't think i've ever seen it. it's happened with a butt scoot a few times, though i don't think it's ever happened in the UFC. http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/dq-refused-to-stand-up-from-butt-scoot.2758049/

 

[acannxr]

Yellow cards would be a better way to limit stalling.

See my previous response on this point:

You're assuming referees could properly interpret whether or not a fighter was stalling.

It's for that same reason I think they should change any rule that contains the word "warning". Fence grab, groin strike, eye poke, and any other similar rule should immediately constitute an instant point reduction without warning. It puts less dependency on the competency of the referee.

 

[revoltub]

Yellow cards are about disincentivizing stalling by punishing it, but I think it makes sense to remove perverse incentives first. Takedowns and control should not be scoring criteria. If they're effective, you'll use them to do damage and/or threaten with submissions, and the fighter using them effectively will score points with those. Stop rewarding significant points for short, conservative ground and pound. Award more points for posturing and power shots. Reward more points for good submission attempts, so fighters will risk position to go for them.

Right now, you can take a guy down, land nothing of substance, and win the round. Instead, score those rounds 10-10. Make fighters earn the round with meaningful offense, not just shutting their opponent down and doing the bare minimum.

On the other hand, don't just focus on the guy on top. Right now, stand-ups incentivize the guy on the bottom wrapping their opponent up in a tight closed guard and waiting for the referee to save him. Remove stand-ups. Tell the guy on the bottom he's not going to get up unless he takes some risks to do so. Bigger rewards for threatening submission attempts would also encourage the guy on the bottom to try them, potentially opening offensive opportunities for the guy on top. If you can't win rounds by stalling on top, you don't need stand-ups anyway.

I see what you are getting at but I think it is diningenous to suggest that a guy on top isnt at an advantage and that grappling should always be considered neutral positioning.

A guy on top, damage or not, is clearly in a more dominant position and that should count for something

 

[SeattleFightFan]

A guy on top, damage or not, is clearly in a more dominant position and that should count for something

that is true. but positioning is supposed to count for less than strikes. so why shouldn't 3 damaging elbows from the bottom count for more than a top control hold down with no damage?

 

[Hollywood Jack]

yellow cards will never fly in the US. not with state AC hired refs. people need to quit pretending that Pride-like yellow cards are an option for the UFC. they're not.

refs can dock a fighter a point though. very rare. don't think i've ever seen it. it's happened with a butt scoot a few times, though i don't think it's ever happened in the UFC. http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/dq-refused-to-stand-up-from-butt-scoot.2758049/

I get that. I was just mentioning all of the commonalities which led to less stalling in Pride. I think it was all of the other things besides banning elbows.

 

[revoltub]

that is true. but positioning is supposed to count for less than strikes. so why shouldn't 3 damaging elbows from the bottom count for more than a top control hold down with no damage?

There should be equilibrium between scoring the position and scoring the strike. I guess it depends on how long he is on top and how many times he gets elbowed. I think if he throws his own elbow it should count for more than the guy on the bottoms.

Its tough to say really. I do think bottom offense is scored too lowly in mma. But I don't think it should be on equal ground with offense from the top. Am I making sense? I think the solution is to score strikes from the bottom MORE heavily, but not TOO heavily.

 

[Hardcore MMA]

These definitely need to be added to the rules. Also throw in 12/6 elbows

12-6 elbows absolutely! Make no sense these are illegal when you can throw any other type of elbow. Very outdated rule. That would help wrestlers land more exciting shots from top position.

 

[Hollywood Jack]

See my previous response on this point:

I wouldn't make it quite as black and white as that, but yes, referees should take away points and disqualify more. Like Li should have been disqualified and suspended for eye gouging Matthews. But instead all he got was a warning. Guys like Jon Jones should be watched closely and penalized for eye pokes. But Li is even worse for robbing Matthews of a finish and a potential bonus. Complete bullshit.

 

[12ga.]

Yes give them head butts, 12/6 elbows and knees to head and GSP would have 100% KO ratio probably inside the first round. Only reason guard is superior position and lay and pray happens you cant really fight when on the ground.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

There should be equilibrium between scoring the position and scoring the strike. I guess it depends on how long he is on top and how many times he gets elbowed. I think if he throws his own elbow it should count for more than the guy on the bottoms.

Its tough to say really. I do think bottom offense is scored too lowly in mma. But I don't think it should be on equal ground with offense from the top. Am I making sense? I think the solution is to score strikes from the bottom MORE heavily, but not TOO heavily.

ya it makes sense. it's not cut and dry.

we agree that top positions counts for too much. the rest is not so simple. cheers.

 

[Bend NvR Break]

Take away elbows and you take away lay-and-pray; it would force wrestlers to ground-and-pound or go for submissions.

Elbows? Why?

 

[Hardcore MMA]

put another way, everyone likes wrestling when it's used as a means to an end. no one ever complained about Matt Hughes. because he used wrestling to get subs & do damage.

getting takedowns and holddowns as an end goal is the problem. so take away the rewards structure of takedowns and holddowns.

Which we have seen this rule change recently. Hopefully the outcome of the Sage Northutt fight this past weekend wakes up some fighters who look to lay and pray.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Which we have seen this rule change recently. Hopefully the outcome of the Sage Northutt fight this past weekend wakes up some fighters who look to lay and pray.

what rule change recently? elaborate please.