Is striking secondary to grappling?

[Uchi Mata]

Firas Zahabi mentioned in one of his videos he wouldn't let his guys fight if they weren't at least a blue belt in bjj and have been wrestling with them for a couple of years. Not sure if one is secondary to the other, but without confidence in the ground, he reasons most of the striking is too tentative to be useful. He also mentions that longtime grapplers like Demain Maia who has been training striking for years still looks rigid and clunky because of the " locked up" nature of grappling. Whereas like in muay thai, we're constantly being told to relax. I think the majority of Top 15 in any weight class will be littered with wrestling and grappling base, but I believe the elite of the elite will more often be guys who possess more fluidity on the stand up. This transcends martial arts bases, and more on the individuals ability to train across the entire spectrum.

It's very hard to compare the efficacy of grappling vs. striking in MMA for many reasons, but one of the big ones is that elite strikers rarely go into MMA, or if they do it's near the end of their careers or just 1-2x as a money grab. We've had several Olympic medalists and tons D1 All American wrestlers go into MMA, it's about the only way they can make money off their combat sports expertise after college. How many Olympic boxers have we seen go into MMA? How many Lumpinee champions? When guys have made the transition in their primes like CroCop they generally become very top guys very fast.

As for grappling making you clunky though, I don't think that's true. Grappling isn't nearly as locked up as people think, good BJJ, wrestling, or Judo involves a lot of going back and forth between high tension and relaxation just like striking. You can't be fast on the mat if you're tense all the time, plus being tense all the time makes it very, very easy to misdirect you into a TD or sub. Not to even mention that no human being can sustain peak muscular tension for the length of a wrestling or BJJ match without gassing. I think guys like Demian Maia look clunky with their striking because they're not athletic in the way most good strikers are. Even on the mat Maia is not that fluid, he's just super technical and deceptively strong. I think when you get guys with more timing, flowy grappling styles who are also good athletes with good striking coaches they look pretty natural pretty fast, like Mendes and Dillashaw with Ludwig.

 

[mikiemike87]

I don't ever speak in absolutes, there are of course exceptions, and the notion itself might be untrue. I figured if Firas said it, its worth mulling over. I'm also really into sports physiology and religiously follow Joel Jamieson's articles, I do think grappling is diametrically opposed to striking on the physiological level. With max strength crossing over to grappling more so than the striking realm. Whereas plyometrics focusing on the relaxation and elasticity of muscles transferring over to striking better. So it makes me wonder, to what degree of specialization in grappling could be the physiological point of no return, eg. maybe Jones not competing at a higher wrestling level prevented him from further development in that track of sports fitness,but allowed him to developed in a more balanced way for mma. Or maybe hes just a genetic freak who knows. Its the spectrum of MMA that makes everything intriguing because its a balancing act. I think the degree of specialization of grappling vs wrestling makes the subject even more complex, but I do think wresting and different wrestling styles translates better than perhaps bjj to striking due to the need of quick burst work.

Dillashaw and Mendes are great examples, I would also include Jones and Lawler as exceptions,but we also have other examples of lifetime wrestlers/grapplers who can't seem to turn the corner on elite striking, even if they're explosive. Jacare, Woodley come to mind as being generally more athletic, but seem to lack something in the striking department. And then you just have the god awful striking by lifetime wrestlers in Ben Askren and Jake Shields who train with some of the foremost muay thai coaches available, and never seemed to show great strides in that department. Of course there's shades and degrees to the topic, but its fun mulling over.

 

[Bobbybackpack]

IMO rules favor grapplers

2 skilled grapplers (e.g. vinny and phil davis), best striker wins

good luck grappling in a street fight. if you grapple it's easy to be dirty (eye pokes, grabbing ears,etc..). if a guy tries to eye poke me or kick me in the balls standing, i'm going to see that shit coming

Not really. Its not that easy to be dirty and you can still get eye poked on striking range. 90% of eye pokes are from striking range. Plus in UFC 4 groin strikes were legal, and Royce still managed to beat Grapplers and Strikers.

 

[Paradigm]

Couldn't agree more. Often it's losing balance or tripping over objects, bystanders e.t.c. The other big one is of course getting knocked down.

I think the most vital skill is to be able to scramble back to your feet quickly. We are seeing this in MMA too. Guys like Chuck made successful careers out of fighting this way.

Probably mentioned in the last four years since the TS posted (lol) but Chuck was a grappler also (Division 1 wrestler).

 

[aries]

Probably mentioned in the last four years since the TS posted (lol) but Chuck was a grappler also (Division 1 wrestler).

Yeah I know. I was just making the point that he used his counter grappling ability more than anything to keep the fight where he wanted it, on the feet.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don't ever speak in absolutes, there are of course exceptions, and the notion itself might be untrue. I figured if Firas said it, its worth mulling over. I'm also really into sports physiology and religiously follow Joel Jamieson's articles, I do think grappling is diametrically opposed to striking on the physiological level. With max strength crossing over to grappling more so than the striking realm. Whereas plyometrics focusing on the relaxation and elasticity of muscles transferring over to striking better. So it makes me wonder, to what degree of specialization in grappling could be the physiological point of no return, eg. maybe Jones not competing at a higher wrestling level prevented him from further development in that track of sports fitness,but allowed him to developed in a more balanced way for mma. Or maybe hes just a genetic freak who knows. Its the spectrum of MMA that makes everything intriguing because its a balancing act. I think the degree of specialization of grappling vs wrestling makes the subject even more complex, but I do think wresting and different wrestling styles translates better than perhaps bjj to striking due to the need of quick burst work.

Dillashaw and Mendes are great examples, I would also include Jones and Lawler as exceptions,but we also have other examples of lifetime wrestlers/grapplers who can't seem to turn the corner on elite striking, even if they're explosive. Jacare, Woodley come to mind as being generally more athletic, but seem to lack something in the striking department. And then you just have the god awful striking by lifetime wrestlers in Ben Askren and Jake Shields who train with some of the foremost muay thai coaches available, and never seemed to show great strides in that department. Of course there's shades and degrees to the topic, but its fun mulling over.

Again, I think it depends a great deal on the sport and the individual athlete's style. Some grappling sports like Judo and Greco Roman lend themselves more to high tension and maximal strength output as important attributes for success (since you do a lot of lifting people from awkward angles, pulling them forward in a burst, etc.) whereas freestyle wrestling and BJJ typically benefit a lot more from fluidity and speed. Even within those sports there are no absolutes. You can have a Judo style based on movement, timing, and feints more than strength (mine certainly was), or you can be a BJJ guy who relies on brutally overpowering people, though those guys don't tend to be very successful at the highest levels. With guys like Jacare and Woodley, I don't think they lack anything in terms of their raw ability to learn striking, rather they're just both powerful, explosive athletes so they've found more success from an intermittent, high power style rather than a volume based style. We tend to think of volume, range strikers as being more technical but that's not necessarily true. You can throw 10 shots a round but if you're setting them up well and throwing them with power at the right time you could still be striking very technically.

I think that genetics play a much bigger role in whether someone has a low output, high power, explosive style vs. more of a volume style than what sports they grew up playing. I think that if you took a longer, quicker, more movement based wrestler like Cael Sanderson and taught him to strike he'd probably strike a lot like he wrestled: using movement, angles, and timing rather than brute force. Dom Cruz's background was wrestling, and as hard as his striking is to characterize it's definitely not based on overwhelming power. That's because that wasn't his wrestling style: he was always a movement guy, and he remained one in his striking, which is not surprising when you consider that his attributes for his division are length and quick feet rather than freak strength. Speaking personally, my Judo, wrestling, and BJJ are all very movement oriented and my striking is also much more about volume and trying to create angles than it is just banging it out. I'm definitely not a big power guy, but I never have been in grappling either.

 

[MaxMMA]

Both equally important if you truely want to be well rounded. Striking and grappling go hand in hand, especially standing grappling.

If you want to be dangerous you should be able to piece someone up on the feet and then finish them with submissions or gnp when they inevitably grab a hold of you to save themselves from the peppering.

 

[whougonnacall]

It's very hard to compare the efficacy of grappling vs. striking in MMA for many reasons, but one of the big ones is that elite strikers rarely go into MMA, or if they do it's near the end of their careers or just 1-2x as a money grab. We've had several Olympic medalists and tons D1 All American wrestlers go into MMA, it's about the only way they can make money off their combat sports expertise after college. How many Olympic boxers have we seen go into MMA? How many Lumpinee champions? When guys have made the transition in their primes like CroCop they generally become very top guys very fast.

As for grappling making you clunky though, I don't think that's true. Grappling isn't nearly as locked up as people think, good BJJ, wrestling, or Judo involves a lot of going back and forth between high tension and relaxation just like striking. You can't be fast on the mat if you're tense all the time, plus being tense all the time makes it very, very easy to misdirect you into a TD or sub. Not to even mention that no human being can sustain peak muscular tension for the length of a wrestling or BJJ match without gassing. I think guys like Demian Maia look clunky with their striking because they're not athletic in the way most good strikers are. Even on the mat Maia is not that fluid, he's just super technical and deceptively strong. I think when you get guys with more timing, flowy grappling styles who are also good athletes with good striking coaches they look pretty natural pretty fast, like Mendes and Dillashaw with Ludwig.

This^
its hard to swallow the narrative when decent strikers rarely go to mma but decent grapplers flock there
Joe rogan kept on about wrestling being the best base yet we dont see peoplle with a lifetime in competitive striking bases go to mma in any kimd of numbers

 

[Paradigm]

This^
its hard to swallow the narrative when decent strikers rarely go to mma but decent grapplers flock there
Joe rogan kept on about wrestling being the best base yet we dont see peoplle with a lifetime in competitive striking bases go to mma in any kimd of numbers

Probably because in the past, striking guys had other options for making money...whereas wrestlers and grapplers didn't (at least not to the same extent that strikers did).

 

[whougonnacall]

Probably because in the past, striking guys had other options for making money...whereas wrestlers and grapplers didn't (at least not to the same extent that strikers did).

Yep

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Probably because in the past, striking guys had other options for making money...whereas wrestlers and grapplers didn't (at least not to the same extent that strikers did).

This. If you were a competitive wrestler, you had two options: MMA or Professional Wrestling, and it's worth mentioning that at the time the UFC got going, there was a lot more money in Pro Wrestling, which is why there are guys like Kurt Angle who went there, in spite of wanting to compete in legitimate fights, because it paid far better.

You saw the good wrestlers flood in more around the early 2000s when it started to take off as a more viable alternative to pro wrestling.

 

[MaxMMA]

This^
its hard to swallow the narrative when decent strikers rarely go to mma but decent grapplers flock there
Joe rogan kept on about wrestling being the best base yet we dont see peoplle with a lifetime in competitive striking bases go to mma in any kimd of numbers

Kind of, but not really. Although there are more people that come from grappling backgrounds there are still lots of good strikers that took the plunge into MMA, crocop, hunt, Anderson, manhoef, cung lee just to name a few off the top of my head. I see it all the time in the local leagues in my state. Plenty of boxers/kickboxers dip into MMA.

I believe one reason you don't see as many as you do grapplers is the contrast in training between striking and grappling. While boxing/MT/karate/tkd training is no cakewalk and will whip your ass into shape, you don't have to take daily ass beatings to get good at striking the way you have to in grappling.

While live sparring plays a huge role in most striking arts, it is rarely a daily task in order to progress as a striker where as most grappling arts, live sparring is viewed as a daily requirement in order to progress. After being involved in martial arts for a long time, getting your ass handed to you by jiu-jitsu blue belts day in and day out requires some humility.

While I won't say that wrestling is the best base for MMA, I would say that it is the most important skill a fighter can bring to the cage for obvious reasons. If most people agree to that statement then its obvious why you see so many fighters with wrestling backgrounds competing in MMA.

 

[Hotora86]

For self-defense the best option is RUNNING.

For MMA there is no "choice" - YOU MUST TRAIN BOTH.

So the question is in itself inherently flawed, sorry.

 

[whougonnacall]

Kind of, but not really. Although there are more people that come from grappling backgrounds there are still lots of good strikers that took the plunge into MMA, crocop, hunt, Anderson, manhoef, cung lee just to name a few off the top of my head. I see it all the time in the local leagues in my state. Plenty of boxers/kickboxers dip into MMA.

I believe one reason you don't see as many as you do grapplers is the contrast in training between striking and grappling. While boxing/MT/karate/tkd training is no cakewalk and will whip your ass into shape, you don't have to take daily ass beatings to get good at striking the way you have to in grappling.

While live sparring plays a huge role in most striking arts, it is rarely a daily task in order to progress as a striker where as most grappling arts, live sparring is viewed as a daily requirement in order to progress. After being involved in martial arts for a long time, getting your ass handed to you by jiu-jitsu blue belts day in and day out requires some humility.

While I won't say that wrestling is the best base for MMA, I would say that it is the most important skill a fighter can bring to the cage for obvious reasons. If most people agree to that statement then its obvious why you see so many fighters with wrestling backgrounds competing in MMA.

Cro cop in his prime was a good example, hunt even now is doingvwell
Anderson was never a decorated striker,manhoef barely trained for mma and cung le won some u.s sanda tournaments..not up against much
Few of the best dip in or take it seriously in their prime...the best kickboxers still kickbox as do the best boxers

That theoru doesnt hold up ....Striking arts require sparring to get good too and the sparring can teaCh u a lot more pain and humility than ul get in grappling .....tapping out wont ego check u as much as being stopped or getting ur chin checked! Muay thai is considered byball who cross train the most brutal on the body arts to compete in for a reason!


Again the reason u see so many former wrestlers is 2 fold
Its a sport dominated by american orgs without any outside rankibns so most recruited into big mma orgs are americans....due to wrestlings huge base there wrestling was always gonna be well represented
B) as others have pointed out there are incentives keeping masses of people from other bases out of mma ie cash,fame (muay thai fighters at home are gods) ,olympic funding etc etc.

 

[MaxMMA]

Cro cop in his prime was a good example, hunt even now is doingvwell
Anderson was never a decorated striker,manhoef barely trained for mma and cung le won some u.s sanda tournaments..not up against much
Few of the best dip in or take it seriously in their prime...the best kickboxers still kickbox as do the best boxers

That theoru doesnt hold up ....Striking arts require sparring to get good too and the sparring can teaCh u a lot more pain and humility than ul get in grappling .....tapping out wont ego check u as much as being stopped or getting ur chin checked! Muay thai is considered byball who cross train the most brutal on the body arts to compete in for a reason!


Again the reason u see so many former wrestlers is 2 fold
Its a sport dominated by american orgs without any outside rankibns so most recruited into big mma orgs are americans....due to wrestlings huge base there wrestling was always gonna be well represented
B) as others have pointed out there are incentives keeping masses of people from other bases out of mma ie cash,fame (muay thai fighters at home are gods) ,olympic funding etc etc.

I've trained extensively in both striking and grappling arts. Like I said in the other post, most striking training is no joke and sparring plays an integral role in progressing in those arts, and no doubt a sparring session down at your local boxing club can be a humbling experience to a new person. However its rare for sparring to be on the menu every day of the week in striking like it is in grappling.

As a jiujitsu noob you can expect to get smashed every night of the week. Constantly having to battle against other peoples body weight on top of you, getting cross faced, getting taken down, getting tossed around, constantly having other peoples body parts getting slammed into yours vs doing rounds of footwork drills,shadow boxing, bagwork, padwork, jumping rope. It's not even close grappling is by far a much harder grind, I'd be surprised if anyone with extensive training in both grappling and striking said otherwise.

I'm not saying the reasons you mentioned weren't valid because that does make sense, but grappling is a much different animal, and I would say that transitioning from grappling to striking is much smoother than transitioning from striking to grappling. Striking is far less taxing on the body than grappling, especially in your first few years of grappling.

 

[a guy]

Kind of, but not really. Although there are more people that come from grappling backgrounds there are still lots of good strikers that took the plunge into MMA, crocop, hunt, Anderson, manhoef, cung lee just to name a few off the top of my head. I see it all the time in the local leagues in my state. Plenty of boxers/kickboxers dip into MMA.

I believe one reason you don't see as many as you do grapplers is the contrast in training between striking and grappling. While boxing/MT/karate/tkd training is no cakewalk and will whip your ass into shape, you don't have to take daily ass beatings to get good at striking the way you have to in grappling.

While live sparring plays a huge role in most striking arts, it is rarely a daily task in order to progress as a striker where as most grappling arts, live sparring is viewed as a daily requirement in order to progress. After being involved in martial arts for a long time, getting your ass handed to you by jiu-jitsu blue belts day in and day out requires some humility.

While I won't say that wrestling is the best base for MMA, I would say that it is the most important skill a fighter can bring to the cage for obvious reasons. If most people agree to that statement then its obvious why you see so many fighters with wrestling backgrounds competing in MMA.

There is a pretty significant gap in both the quality and quantity of grapplers coming into MMA vs the strikers.

We have grapplers who have competed successfully at the highest levels of their sports transitioning to MMA regularly. We've seen Olympians, medalists at Mundials, top ADCC competitors, not to mention the extensive list of D1 All American wrestlers and BJJ black belts. Fighters like Henry Cejudo (Olympic gold medal in wrestling), Yoel Romero (Olympic silver medal and a 4th place finish in the 2004 Olympics, FILA World Champ with 4 other medals), Dan Henderson (two time Olympian, 3 time USA Senior Greco-Roman champion) , Daniel Cormier (2 time Olympian, competed in multiple Fila Senior World Championships), Hector Lombard (went to the olympics for Judo, medaled in several Cuban National championships), Jacare Souza (5 time BJJ World Champ, including 3 wins in the absolute division, ADCC champ and runner up, easily one of the top 3 BJJ fighters of his time), Fabricio Werdum (2 time BJJ World Champ, 2 time ADCC champ), Sergio Moraes (BJJ World champ), Demian Maia (ADCC champ and silver medalist, BJJ World champ at purple belt), Phil Davis (four time All American, 1 time NCAA champ), Josh Koscheck (four time All American,1 time NCAA champ), Johnny Hendricks (four time All American, 2 time NCAA champ), and Khabib Nurmagomedov (2 time combat sambo world champ, Judo black belt and lifelong wrestler). Those are just the really high level ones currently in the UFC.

The only strikers in MMA right now who have around the same level of credentials as all those guys are Dejdamrong (2 weight Lumpinee champ), Hunt and Overeem with their K1 Grand Prix wins, and I'll throw Tenshin in there because he's one hell of a striking prodigy who's now transitioning to MMA. 4 guys with elite striking credentials/talent, and I had to look outside the UFC to find 2 of them, which can easily be offset by guys like Aaron Pico (medaled at a few senior level freestyle events as a teenager, qualified for the Olympic trials at 19 but lost in the finals to Frank Molinaro, 4 time All American and 1 time NCAA Champ) and Ben Askren (4 time NCAA All American and 2008 Olympian).

The biggest reason for this gap is the money. The training might be somewhat of a factor, but the bigger factor is that top striking prospects aren't trying it out in the first place. Yea, local boxers and kickboxers will give MMA a shot because that's the thing to do now, but very rarely do you see elite level talent from striking sports even considering MMA as an alternative to their own sport. Meanwhile every year we here about more and more top grapplers, especially American wrestlers, who are switching to MMA. I also think it goes both ways. Some guys really hate the grind of grappling when they try to pick it up, others love it. Some guys simply can't stand getting hit in the face (Lesnar lol), others don't get phased by it. I'd put that down to more of an individual thing.

 

[whougonnacall]

I've trained extensively in both striking and grappling arts. Like I said in the other post, most striking training is no joke and sparring plays an integral role in progressing in those arts, and no doubt a sparring session down at your local boxing club can be a humbling experience to a new person. However its rare for sparring to be on the menu every day of the week in striking like it is in grappling.

As a jiujitsu noob you can expect to get smashed every night of the week. Constantly having to battle against other peoples body weight on top of you, getting cross faced, getting taken down, getting tossed around, constantly having other peoples body parts getting slammed into yours vs doing rounds of footwork drills,shadow boxing, bagwork, padwork, jumping rope. It's not even close grappling is by far a much harder grind, I'd be surprised if anyone with extensive training in both grappling and striking said otherwise.

I'm not saying the reasons you mentioned weren't valid because that does make sense, but grappling is a much different animal, and I would say that transitioning from grappling to striking is much smoother than transitioning from striking to grappling. Striking is far less taxing on the body than grappling, especially in your first few years of grappling.

Id disagree strongly man the bjj or wrestling iv always found a tough grind but nowhere near as tough mentaly or physicaly as a hard sparring session in thai or boxing
And when ur not sparring its usualy a gruelling cardio and endurance session training as bad as any wrestling camp....for noobs its sweat loads and sick bucket stuff

Again the volume of quality strikers comming in simply isnt the same as quality grapplers comming for many reasons it doesnt make either base better than the other
Maybe someday if boxing collapses or thailand goes bored of its own sport wel see but til then...

 

[j123]

I've trained extensively in both striking and grappling arts. Like I said in the other post, most striking training is no joke and sparring plays an integral role in progressing in those arts, and no doubt a sparring session down at your local boxing club can be a humbling experience to a new person. However its rare for sparring to be on the menu every day of the week in striking like it is in grappling.

As a jiujitsu noob you can expect to get smashed every night of the week. Constantly having to battle against other peoples body weight on top of you, getting cross faced, getting taken down, getting tossed around, constantly having other peoples body parts getting slammed into yours vs doing rounds of footwork drills,shadow boxing, bagwork, padwork, jumping rope. It's not even close grappling is by far a much harder grind, I'd be surprised if anyone with extensive training in both grappling and striking said otherwise.

I'm not saying the reasons you mentioned weren't valid because that does make sense, but grappling is a much different animal, and I would say that transitioning from grappling to striking is much smoother than transitioning from striking to grappling. Striking is far less taxing on the body than grappling, especially in your first few years of grappling.

On a physical sense maybe, but mentally I would say no. But at the end of the day it depends on the person themself.

In the ammy circuit, alot of times when pure bred grapplers transition over to MMA, the mental aspect of striking destroys them. Getting shut down big time against a fairly decent striker with TDD, and its bad. Some actually lose by sub being out their element.
I've seen first hand guys shut down and just think about surviving and not winning after getting cracked by stiff jab in the opening. It screws with you mentally: this fighter's fastest and "weakest" strike just did that much damage, imagine if he/she throw's power shots.

 

[Paradigm]

I've trained extensively in both striking and grappling arts. Like I said in the other post, most striking training is no joke and sparring plays an integral role in progressing in those arts, and no doubt a sparring session down at your local boxing club can be a humbling experience to a new person. However its rare for sparring to be on the menu every day of the week in striking like it is in grappling.

As a jiujitsu noob you can expect to get smashed every night of the week. Constantly having to battle against other peoples body weight on top of you, getting cross faced, getting taken down, getting tossed around, constantly having other peoples body parts getting slammed into yours vs doing rounds of footwork drills,shadow boxing, bagwork, padwork, jumping rope. It's not even close grappling is by far a much harder grind, I'd be surprised if anyone with extensive training in both grappling and striking said otherwise.

I'm not saying the reasons you mentioned weren't valid because that does make sense, but grappling is a much different animal, and I would say that transitioning from grappling to striking is much smoother than transitioning from striking to grappling. Striking is far less taxing on the body than grappling, especially in your first few years of grappling.

I think you're overlooking the fact as to why you can spar/roll in grappling every day versus sparring every day...even only going at 50% sparring 3-5x a week, the damage accumulates and adds up. This is in reference to Muay Thai...maybe boxing is different, but I doubt it. Never trained BJJ but from what I've read and talking to people I know that do it, the average intensity during rolling is much higher than striking sparring because you can physically do it more frequently.

 

[a guy]

On a physical sense maybe, but mentally I would say no. But at the end of the day it depends on the person themself.

In the ammy circuit, alot of times when pure bred grapplers transition over to MMA, the mental aspect of striking destroys them. Getting shut down big time against a fairly decent striker with TDD, and its bad. Some actually lose by sub being out their element.
I've seen first hand guys shut down and just think about surviving and not winning after getting cracked by stiff jab in the opening. It screws with you mentally: this fighter's fastest and "weakest" strike just did that much damage, imagine if he/she throw's power shots.

Basically what happened to Aaron Pico. He ate a single uppercut then got himself guillotined and thus one of the biggest hype trains in recent MMA history blew up before it even left the station.