Is Ric Flair is the Greatest Of All Time?

There has never been a WWF/E champion nor wrestler as over internationally as Bret Hart with the exception of maybe Hogan. Bret was huge over in Europe, India, and Asia. While he never reached that popularity in the states, he was over but this was the WWF during the early-mid 90s when no one was drawing like Hogan was in the 80s and it wasn't until Austin came along that the WWE had another HUGE draw in the states like Hogan.

Keep in mind Bret Hart is the only wrestler to ever win Most Popular Athlete in Europe and he won it twice. He also won Sportsman of the Year in Germany in '94, getting more votes than Boris Becker, who is considered the greatest German tennis player of all time. Hart also won "Wrestler of the Year" as voted by Japanese fans, which is absurd when you think about it.
 
The problem is Bret Hart is president of the Bret Hart fan club. The King of Marks
 
Wrestling is like the circus , if you don't like the lion tamer your going to like the guy who gets shot out of a cannon .
Who the goat is is a matter of preference .

But Flair is a great choice
 
J Danger said:
The problem is Bret Hart is president of the Bret Hart fan club. The King of Marks
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True to an extent. Bret took himself super seriosuly, but it paid off for his craft. I don't think his personality is a factor in discussing his work or his draw. It's like saying Tito was important for the growth of UFC because you don't like him personally.
 
Bret Hart is a Canadian Benoit? WAT??? If you Canadian twice, does that cancel you out?

Flair isn't my personal GOAT, but a lot of my favourites think he is.
 
AndTate said:
True to an extent. Bret took himself super seriosuly, but it paid off for his craft. I don't think his personality is a factor in discussing his work or his draw. It's like saying Tito was important for the growth of UFC because you don't like him personally.
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Your last two sentences are what fans fail to realize.

I grew up with Hogan was my first true favorite wrestler but outgrew him quickly. The more I learned about Hogan, the more I disliked him. His backstage pulls and politicking...but I have never, and will never, let that blind me. When we are talking GOATs, and if we take everything into consideration, Hogan is the the GOAT of pro wrestling. I don't care for him anymore as a wrestler, his wrestling style is iffy at best, his backstage politicking is as bad as anyone who's ever been in wrestling, but I will not deny Hogan of his greatness, in the ring, outside the ring, his impact, longevity, nor his drawing power and overall popularity all across the globe.
 
Im no pro wrestling historian but I do venture around wrestlingclassics forum a lot and 26 posters compiled a top 100 list (including Dave Meltzer) and the top 5 (using an aggregate point system) according to them were:

1: Lou Thesz
2: Jim Londos
3: Hulk Hogan
4: Ed "Strangler" Lewis
5: Frank Gotch

Flair was #7.

Out of the 26 voters, 12 of them voted Jim Londos as #1, the most out of anyone.

This was finalized around 2013 - so a couple years old.
 
Egnuldt said:
Im no pro wrestling historian but I do venture around wrestlingclassics forum a lot and 26 posters compiled a top 100 list (including Dave Meltzer) and the top 5 (using an aggregate point system) according to them were:

1: Lou Thesz
2: Jim Londos
3: Hulk Hogan
4: Ed "Strangler" Lewis
5: Frank Gotch

Flair was #7.

Out of the 26 voters, 12 of them voted Jim Londos as #1, the most out of anyone.

This was finalized around 2013 - so a couple years old.
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Yeah, I don't think that's a good sound board though. Like, at all. I mean, how many Lou Thesz matches are even on film??
 
savemgs said:
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Is Ric Flair is the Greatest Of All Time?​
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hogan n its not even close.
 
I would personally consider pEople like Flair and hogan more of a pioneer than call them goat. They can't actually wrestle when compared to people like Neville, the rock, Seth Rollins, Austin, etc. all of whom and many more have exciting matches that aren't predictable and are huge displays of talent, creativity, durability, and preparation.

I think the goat should be a total package. Someone who can do the physical work as well as crowd work and bring an element of surprise to the show. For example, Seth Rollins who I currently consider the #1 guy is doing things I've never seen before in matches, can take 100 hard bumps in 1 match, can pull off power moves, high flying moves, exotic moves, and even has a few original or rare moves that he does well. He works the modern crowd in a way I haven't seen anyone else be able to do with all the "boring" chants, and " we want blah blah" chants etcs that people get in the middle of their monologuing. That takes real skill and real creativity and preparation that people like flair never needed to have

Basically, I don't think ppl like flair/hogan/macho man/undertaker are goat because while they're fun and entertaining... If you've seen them once you've seen them 100 times.

I still say Austin is #1 all time. His popularity was bat shit insane in the late 90s. And no one ever had you on the edge of your seat like Austin moments. It's a shame it was so short lived.
 
AndTate said:
Yeah, I don't think that's a good sound board though. Like, at all. I mean, how many Lou Thesz matches are even on film??
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Agreed, I feel like researching the bigger 'historical draws' were used more in the decision. Again, most people had Jim Londos had number 1.

The overall criteria (loosely mind you) was this:

--- Individuals only - no voting for tag teams

--- Time Period was 1860 to present day (2013)


--- While drawing & Box Office, importance outside of wrestling, longevity, working ability, style influence were all encouraged as criteria to consider, it was left it open to interpretation of the individual voters.


Drawing/Box Office, influence outside of wrestling... seem to be the biggest criteria. As in Stardom during the times.

Still the majority had Londos (who I knew was a pioneer but thats it) as #1. Top draw in US, and everyone during that time knew who he was and was a huge as in he supposedly packed 100k stadiums back in the day when he did tours in Greece.

Love watching old wrestling videos (80s and earlier) a lot due to the crowd heat.

I couldnt honestly construct a list because I just dont know enough about the pioneers to vote on that.
 
JamesRyko said:
I would personally consider pEople like Flair and hogan more of a pioneer than call them goat. They can't actually wrestle when compared to people like Neville, the rock, Seth Rollins, Austin, etc.
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Sorry, stopped reading here.
 
Egnuldt said:
Im no pro wrestling historian but I do venture around wrestlingclassics forum a lot and 26 posters compiled a top 100 list (including Dave Meltzer) and the top 5 (using an aggregate point system) according to them were:

1: Lou Thesz
2: Jim Londos
3: Hulk Hogan
4: Ed "Strangler" Lewis
5: Frank Gotch

Flair was #7.

Out of the 26 voters, 12 of them voted Jim Londos as #1, the most out of anyone.

This was finalized around 2013 - so a couple years old.
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Look how cool I am. I a fan of scrub wrestlers who nobody has even heard of

Jim Londos? LMFAO
Frank Gotch?

Who are these scrubs
 
Unlike a true sport where you can gather factual stats, actual championships won, etc, pro wrestling is always going to be alot more subjective. For me, to find a GOAT, I would have at least the following criteria and again, it would be based on each individual wrestler's respective era:

- Actual Wrestling Ability

- Psychology

- Quality Matches

- Championships Won and/or Length of Reign

- Promo Ability

- Draw

- Longevity and Time At The Top

- Overall Impact On PW Industry Inside and Out


As noted before, I don't like Hogan at all for all the things he has done but he did was he felt was necessary to stay at the top even if it hindered others but I cannot deny the man his GREATNESS. He is the GOAT. He made wrestling mainstream. He is the only wrestler where you can go anywhere in the world where they have a tv and at least 1/4 of the people ages 20-100 will be able to recognize who he is. While others may say the same about the Rock, his longevity and time at the top definitely hurts his GOAT status.

Hogan, Thesz and Sammartino are the only guys who are truly close. Everyone else is on a different tier.

Hackenshmidt, Gotch, Londos, Lewis, Undertaker, Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, Wild Bill Longson, The Rock and to a lesser extent, Bret Hart fall under the second tier for me.

For those who think there is a bias, Bret Hart is still my favorite wrestler of all time and there's no way I could put him in there as a GOAT. It's even hard for me to put him in that 2nd tier.
 
the ambush said:
If is a subjective answer, I personally have Flair slated in my top 10 ever. He is just not at the top of my list.
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Same. In the interest of full disclosure, I was always a WWF guy, so I didn't see a lot of Flair in his prime. I didn't start watching WCW regularly until around 1995/96 and Flair, while obviously great, never did it for me. I have Hogan, Austin, Taker, HBK, and Rocky above him, I think.
 



 
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