Economy Is New York giving Amazon corporate welfare?

[MikeMcMann]

I'm sorry you're grumpy.




Whether the investment is good or bad, I don't know. I do agree that businesses should all have to play by the same tax rules.

Right.

But gov'ts should not have to apply the same tax rules to all corporations.

As I stated, a Michigan/Detroit bid to lure corporations in to an area that is on its way to devastation without employers makes perfect sense. Without those jobs the spike in Social costs, infrastructure costs and other are massive. That is all money that will flow out of the Michigan/Detroit economy. So if instead they can lure mass employers in and avoid some or all of that cash outflow and instead start collecting income and purchase taxes as those newly employed start participating in the economy that is good for all. Heck besides a 100% tax holiday for X years they might even be able to justify writing the employers a cheque and the math could still work.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

But gov'ts should not have to apply the same tax rules to all corporations.

That's your opinion. Mine is that industry-specific taxes can make sense. After that, land values are land values and net income is net income.

As I stated, a Michigan/Detroit bid to lure corporations in to an area that is on its way to devastation without employers makes perfect sense. Without those jobs the spike in Social costs, infrastructure costs and other are massive. That is all money that will flow out of the Michigan/Detroit economy. So if instead they can lure mass employers in and avoid some or all of that cash outflow and instead start collecting income and purchase taxes as those newly employed start participating in the economy that is good for all. Heck besides a 100% tax holiday for X years they might even be able to justify writing the employers a cheque and the math could still work.

Maybe give every business tax breaks then. Lots of small businesses add up.

 

[cincymma79]

Stupid big company bringing a bunch of good jobs in and then all the businesses that will come and hire people around them. Who wants that shit? The whole country should buttfuck anyone who wants to run a business as hard as possible so we can complain about outsourcing. I am so offended by this I will say that I’m willing to pay more for companies that don’t do this while not even remotely trying to actually do so. I might go to target. I hear they pay 11 an hour which is 4 less than amazon but I feeel better about myself

 

[MikeMcMann]

That's your opinion. Mine is that industry-specific taxes can make sense. After that, land values are land values and net income is net income.



Maybe give every business tax breaks then. Lots of small businesses add up.

Ya but my opinion makes sense.

Go into Detroit post the auto industry collapse. Look at the devastation that having no industry has had in terms of vacancy, crumbling infrastructure, loss of jobs, welfare and other social assistance and other very high and serious costs.

It is just silly to say Detroit would not have a much bigger incentive to try and incentivize big industry as opposed to Seattle.

Detroit is facing decades of increased tax outflows and loss of revenue and if INSTEAD they can get income tax and rebuilding and not pay that money out it is pure silliness to suggest it would wrong for them to pay corporate welfare to an extent that might not make sense to Seattle or another jurisdiction.

That is the problem with today's politics as everyone wants to treat all situations as if the exact same even when it makes no economic sense to. For Detroit not taxing a corporation for a number of years who will not otherwise come in makes a ton of sense.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Ya but my opinion makes sense.

So does mine. Presuming one values fair play and diminished opportunity for corruption. Places are free to do what they want and I support them making whatever choices they see fit.

 

[Mondo Freaks]

of course. Amazon is getting a huge payday with New York. Its disgusting.

But same thing happens with our farmers, except they are subsidized by the FEDS and not just a state.

 

[Shoemaker]

It's not really welfare because Amazon doesn't need to to survive. It's more like a government reach-around.


That was the fundamental issue I had with the Carrier deal. The saved jobs were nice and all, but that was the government deciding that an individual company should be successful. I'd rather see the government address industries, not individual companies.

 

[Ice That Jaw]

I live a whopping 25miles from the other expected HQ so I'll doubt I'll see an equity boost. I am hoping to see more competitive salaries for my type of work though. Here's hoping.

 

[Fawlty]

Generally not too worried about stuff like this. Convince me I'm wrong? At least it's not a sports stadium fraud. But that's up to New Yorkers.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

A company like Amazon does not need to go to where the talent is. They can bring them in from where ever. Most talent in any given location likely came from outside to get said jobs.

If a company like Amazon move to NYC, because the talent here is so great, and NYC is so great, Amazon cant possibly lure said talent away, and has to move here, then no need to give them any more incentives. If you give some company like Amazon incentive to move here, that company dont really want to here that badly.

So it has nothing to do with talent. What is happening here is the Wall street bankers have children that want to work for Amazon, and need their own high paying jobs. These children either dont want to leave NYC, or their parents like them nearby. Those same wall street bankers own large chunks of Amazon, and are also the only people who can pay Jeff Bezos the price they quote him for his shares of Amazon. In turn, Jeff Bezos cannot be the weathiest human in history without these bankers paying him that price quote for his stocks. Therefore Jeff has incentive to listen to them.

So if you are going to move one of your companies (or give one of your companies a large office complex somewhere), and employ your own children, you may as well tell the politicians you have in your pocket to make it as easy as possible to move/develop it, and make it as cheap as possible for yourself.

 

[SBJJ]

LOL

Giving tax breaks to a company that will not pay its fair share of taxes and also put actual tax paying companies out of business

Sounds great

Stop picking winners big brother. Shit ain't fair

 

[VivaRevolution]

Do you support coporate welfare?
Is this corporate welfare?
Amazon is a trillion dollar company. Should taxpayers pay for their incentives?


New York state is kicking in more than $1.5 billion in taxpayer-funded incentives for getting half of Amazon's second headquarters located in a section of Queens.


Amazon will also receive as-yet unspecified incentives from New York City.

New York state's incentives are nearly triple those of Virginia's, while Tennessee's are $102 million.

According to Amazon, the cost per job for New York taxpayers is $48,000, compared to $22,000 for Virginia and $13,000 for Tennessee.

In a statement released by Amazon, Cuomo called the agreement "one of the largest, most competitive economic development investments in U.S. history."

New York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson issued a statement saying: "Amazon is one of the richest companies in the world...I also don’t understand why a company as rich as Amazon would need nearly $2 billion in public money for its expansion plans at a time when New York desperately needs money for affordable housing, transportation, infrastructure and education."

Incentives offered to Amazon:

— Performance-based direct incentives of $1.525 billion, based on 25,000 full-time, high-paying jobs created. This includes a refundable tax credit of up to $1.2 billion calculated as a percentage of the salaries Amazon expects to pay employees over the next 10 years, which equates to $48,000 per job for 25,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000.

— Cash grant of $325 million based on the square footage of buildings occupied in the next 10 years.


http://www.fox5ny.com/news/48k-per-amazon-hq-job

You can thank Boeing for this.

The Boeing company teaches seminars to other major corporations on how to leverage jobs, and tax revenue for legal bribes.

Let's be clear here. This isn't corporate welfare, this is corporate bribery. The definition of quid pro quo, with a added angle of blackmail.

 

[wlu.29]

https://reason.com/archives/2018/11/13/hq2-how-amazon-made-governments-do-their
What have gone less discussed are the many indirect ways in which policymakers were unknowingly deputized to bolster Amazon's bottom line. It really was ingenious on Amazon's part. They have been able to not only have their pick of the nation's plum and primed office space, they will be able to monetize the resulting data too.

Despite the dramatics of its national sweepstakes, Amazon reportedly is about to announce it has selected two early-anticipated locations: Queens, N.Y. and Crystal City, Va. (located right outside D.C.). This puts the company close to the levers of financial and political power.

Choosing two locations benefits Amazon more generally. First, the company can enjoy two incentive packages at the same time. This maximizes the company's taxpayer-funded benefits while possibly minimizing taxpayer-lodged complaints.

The double-dipped tax goodies and dispersed costs for these two towns are just the start. Really, each of the 238 regions that participated in the search was taken for a ride.


The Amazon HQ2 search was not about HQ2: it was market research.

The mayors and governors and councilmen and commissioners and local developers of America handed priceless information about their plans, investments, and reserve prices to Jeff Bezos for free.

that's pretty smart of bezos and amazon to get that market research

don't all the cities and municipalities that bid have to make their bids public? if so, that makes it so all companies have access to this information now

 

[bad seed]

that's pretty smart of bezos and amazon to get that market research

don't all the cities and municipalities that bid have to make their bids public? if so, that makes it so all companies have access to this information now

those types of bids are already in the latter stages of planning so they know what lot to develop and the supporting infrastructure needed. This is entirely different.
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-hq2-search-data-2018-11

It has also given Amazon something that's potentially far more valuable than any subsidies it may have gleaned: a trove of data.

"Amazon has a godlike view of what's happening in digital commerce, and now cities have helped give it an inside look at what's happening in terms of land use and development across the US," said Stacy Mitchell, a director of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, a think tank based in Washington, DC. "Amazon will put that data to prodigious use in the coming years to expand its empire."

While the information in many of those proposals is sealed from the public or otherwise heavily redacted, it's safe to assume that most contain details about optimal sites for development, current and future land use and development projects, planned infrastructure investments, and demographic information, Mitchell said.

Amazon could use this data to aid in future expansion as it selects sites for new stores, warehouses, data centers, fulfillment centers, and other brick-and-mortar needs.​

 

[wlu.29]

those types of bids are already in the latter stages of planning so they know what lot to develop and the supporting infrastructure needed. This is entirely different.
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-hq2-search-data-2018-11

It has also given Amazon something that's potentially far more valuable than any subsidies it may have gleaned: a trove of data.

"Amazon has a godlike view of what's happening in digital commerce, and now cities have helped give it an inside look at what's happening in terms of land use and development across the US," said Stacy Mitchell, a director of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, a think tank based in Washington, DC. "Amazon will put that data to prodigious use in the coming years to expand its empire."

While the information in many of those proposals is sealed from the public or otherwise heavily redacted, it's safe to assume that most contain details about optimal sites for development, current and future land use and development projects, planned infrastructure investments, and demographic information, Mitchell said.

Amazon could use this data to aid in future expansion as it selects sites for new stores, warehouses, data centers, fulfillment centers, and other brick-and-mortar needs.​

interesting, bezos playing 4d chess

but at the same time as a citizen, i'm not sure i would want cities and municipalities to disclose something to a private company that isn't publicly available to others if it pertains to bids

 

[Darth_Inv1ctu5]

Sounds more like investment than welfare.

Like Wisconsin "invested" in Foxconn and ended up paying 500k per job? No, this shit should be illegal as fuck

 

[Joe265]

This is the fake capitalist system we live in. People are holding on to a hollow shell.

 

[bad seed]

interesting, bezos playing 4d chess

but at the same time as a citizen, i'm not sure i would want cities and municipalities to disclose something to a private company that isn't publicly available to others if it pertains to bids

yep, they all got played by Lord Bezos. Everyone was arguing about which city should "win" the honor of hosting HQ2 while it was a farce all along as the cities bent over backwards to give him valuable data. His long term vision and planning is terrifyingly genius.

 

[RockstarChris]

Do you support coporate welfare?
Is this corporate welfare?
Amazon is a trillion dollar company. Should taxpayers pay for their incentives?


New York state is kicking in more than $1.5 billion in taxpayer-funded incentives for getting half of Amazon's second headquarters located in a section of Queens.


Amazon will also receive as-yet unspecified incentives from New York City.

New York state's incentives are nearly triple those of Virginia's, while Tennessee's are $102 million.

According to Amazon, the cost per job for New York taxpayers is $48,000, compared to $22,000 for Virginia and $13,000 for Tennessee.

In a statement released by Amazon, Cuomo called the agreement "one of the largest, most competitive economic development investments in U.S. history."

New York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson issued a statement saying: "Amazon is one of the richest companies in the world...I also don’t understand why a company as rich as Amazon would need nearly $2 billion in public money for its expansion plans at a time when New York desperately needs money for affordable housing, transportation, infrastructure and education."

Incentives offered to Amazon:

— Performance-based direct incentives of $1.525 billion, based on 25,000 full-time, high-paying jobs created. This includes a refundable tax credit of up to $1.2 billion calculated as a percentage of the salaries Amazon expects to pay employees over the next 10 years, which equates to $48,000 per job for 25,000 jobs with an average wage of over $150,000.

— Cash grant of $325 million based on the square footage of buildings occupied in the next 10 years.


http://www.fox5ny.com/news/48k-per-amazon-hq-job

ask me again after the free shipping for the holidays promotion expires

 

[wlu.29]

yep, they all got played by Lord Bezos. Everyone was arguing about which city should "win" the honor of hosting HQ2 while it was a farce all along as the cities bent over backwards to give him valuable data. His long term vision and planning is terrifyingly genius.

you think amazon is a good buy right now, it's down 23% from its high about 2 months ago