is leandro the p4p king atm?

alissonsp93 said:
Beside the fact that he left our team, he's a humble dude and work hard af. To me he is in the conversation with Roger, Buchecha, Rodolfo and Xande... Id give advantage to the other 3 bc they were OW champions... But no way Rafa is the GOAT, he's game works on his division and ends there. Not taking the talent away from Rafa, but would his game work at HW? I dont think so
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If you've seen Rafa in open weight, the answer is yes his game does work at HW.
 
Zankou said:
If you've seen Rafa in open weight, the answer is yes his game does work at HW.
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I've seen him against Rodolfo nogi, my first mestre competed against him several times at brown and black belt, he said he did well fighting in OW, but all in less known tournaments, mostly here in Sao Paulo
 
yetanother said:
Why wouldn't Rafas game work at HW?
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I think he is the most technical jiujiteiro actively competing nowadays, but I visualize less probable a guy much heavier playing his game. He passes low, in a squatting position trasitioning to leg drag, I've seen guy either playing torreada or passing on their knees. Rafael passing is unique and work incredibly on his body type...

I'm not trying to create controversy and stuff, I just don't see his game on a much heavier guy... I would love to reand counter points to my limited imagination.

OSS
 
We're all splitting hairs here . I'd like to see a comprehensive list from ALL the top BJJ practitioners who they consider the best p 4 p currently and of All time. Damian fucking Maia of all people , recently said on flograppling ( was at Matcelos for seminar ) that he considers Matcelo as the best BJJ practitioner of all time ( not sure if he means competitor or practitioner , or both ).
 
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HunterAcosta said:
We're all splitting hairs here . I'd like to see a comprehensive list from ALL the top BJJ practitioners who they consider the best p 4 p currently and of All time. Damian fucking Maia of all people , recently said on flograppling ( was at Matcelos for seminar ) that he considers Matcelo as the best BJJ practitioner of all time ( not sure if he means competitor or practitioner , or both ).
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Marcelo is the goat, but he's not active anymore
 
alissonsp93 said:
I think he is the most technical jiujiteiro actively competing nowadays, but I visualize less probable a guy much heavier playing his game. He passes low, in a squatting position trasitioning to leg drag, I've seen guy either playing torreada or passing on their knees. Rafael passing is unique and work incredibly on his body type...

I'm not trying to create controversy and stuff, I just don't see his game on a much heavier guy... I would love to reand counter points to my limited imagination.

OSS
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His passing is based on hip redirection and movement. I think it would work fine on a big guy. I don't think body type has anything to do with it, at least not the body type of the guard player (it matters more for the passer, as huge guys generally aren't that mobile from a deep squat like Rafa).

His guard game is also fine for the open class. The Mendes bros are fanatical about all guard positions they play having great distance control, that's a huge part of playing against bigger people. You can see videos on their website of him rolling with much bigger, very high level guys and his guard works great.

The kinds of things I worry about for little guys vs. big guys are if the small guy's game depends on having approximately equal strength, or being able to use your weight to smash, basically if the smaller person has a game built on bullying the other guy. Celsinho, for example, I wouldn't expect to do well in open weight divisions because he loves to smash and grind people his own size and I doubt that would translate well (Augusto Mendes is another guy who I doubt would do great against much bigger elite competition). Rafa's game really isn't like that. On top his game is about timing and movement, on bottom it's about distance control. That's a really good recipe for dealing effectively with larger people. Even though his game was very different, Marcelo had the same features in his game.
 
A question for those who consider Rafa to be P4P #1... How would you see a match against Lucas Lepri going?.. IBJJF GI rules

Imo Lucas is the most technically complete (active) BJJ athlete... Takedowns, Passing, Guard + Submissions... He has everything!

They are one division apart 13.5 lbs... How do you see Rafa beating him?
 
Junior Skilo said:
Why did he Leave?... Is NS Brotherhood a social project as well?
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Different way of thinkin between him and our master about several things. No, NS is a "normal" gym, they maintained the elite training program woth ton of competitor, but at night they have classes for non competitors.
 
Uchi Mata said:
His passing is based on hip redirection and movement. I think it would work fine on a big guy. I don't think body type has anything to do with it, at least not the body type of the guard player (it matters more for the passer, as huge guys generally aren't that mobile from a deep squat like Rafa).

His guard game is also fine for the open class. The Mendes bros are fanatical about all guard positions they play having great distance control, that's a huge part of playing against bigger people. You can see videos on their website of him rolling with much bigger, very high level guys and his guard works great.

The kinds of things I worry about for little guys vs. big guys are if the small guy's game depends on having approximately equal strength, or being able to use your weight to smash, basically if the smaller person has a game built on bullying the other guy. Celsinho, for example, I wouldn't expect to do well in open weight divisions because he loves to smash and grind people his own size and I doubt that would translate well (Augusto Mendes is another guy who I doubt would do great against much bigger elite competition). Rafa's game really isn't like that. On top his game is about timing and movement, on bottom it's about distance control. That's a really good recipe for dealing effectively with larger people. Even though his game was very different, Marcelo had the same features in his game.
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You have a valid point, I'll pay more attention on that.
 
alissonsp93 said:
Different way of thinkin between him and our master about several things. No, NS is a "normal" gym, they maintained the elite training program woth ton of competitor, but at night they have classes for non competitors.
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are they still n good terms? seems like they are since Miyaos train there but still rep PSLPB Cicero Costa and the Unity patch as well. And they closed out with Tiago Barros too at Pans
 
Junior Skilo said:
A question for those who consider Rafa to be P4P #1... How would you see a match against Lucas Lepri going?.. IBJJF GI rules

Imo Lucas is the most technically complete (active) BJJ athlete... Takedowns, Passing, Guard + Submissions... He has everything!

They are one division apart 13.5 lbs... How do you see Rafa beating him?
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I don't know that Rafa would beat him, I think it would be a very even match. As good as his passing is, I don't really see Lucas passing Rafa's guard but I also have a hard time seeing Rafa passing his. Maybe end 2-2, someone wins by advantage? I think Rafa would pull immediately and Lucas would have to fight off some very strong berimbolo threats. If Rafa could get to a leg drag off a bolo...I do think he could finish Lucas from the back.
 
alissonsp93 said:
Different way of thinkin between him and our master about several things. No, NS is a "normal" gym, they maintained the elite training program woth ton of competitor, but at night they have classes for non competitors.
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Do the competitors have to pay?.. Or are they subsidised by the night time students?

Uchi Mata said:
I don't know that Rafa would beat him, I think it would be a very even match. As good as his passing is, I don't really see Lucas passing Rafa's guard but I also have a hard time seeing Rafa passing his. Maybe end 2-2, someone wins by advantage? I think Rafa would pull immediately and Lucas would have to fight off some very strong berimbolo threats. If Rafa could get to a leg drag off a bolo...I do think he could finish Lucas from the back.
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I totally agree it would be a super close fight... The consensus is quiet clear, Rafa is seen as the best technician in BJJ at the moment... But when we take a deeper look, his technically ability does not separate him from best in the the next division up

Thats why Leandro's accomplishments are so astounding... Beating Michael Langhi as well as Lucas Lepri at lightweight.. Then Otavio Sousa at Middleweight... Then Romulo Barral, Tarsis Humphreys and Gabriel Arges at Medium Heavyweight... While we ponder on if Rafa could beat Lepri.. Lo has already beaten Lepri multiple times at lightweight then moved up twice... Beating other World Champs along the way
 
Junior Skilo said:
Do the competitors have to pay?.. Or are they subsidised by the night time students?



I totally agree it would be a super close fight... The consensus is quiet clear, Rafa is seen as the best technician in BJJ at the moment... But when we take a deeper look, his technically ability does not separate him from best in the the next division up

Thats why Leandro's accomplishments are so astounding... Beating Michael Langhi as well as Lucas Lepri at lightweight.. Then Otavio Sousa at Middleweight... Then Romulo Barral, Tarsis Humphreys and Gabriel Arges at Medium Heavyweight... While we ponder on if Rafa could beat Lepri.. Lo has already beaten Lepri multiple times at lightweight then moved up twice... Beating other World Champs along the way
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Leandro Lo vs. Gordon Ryan no-gi sub only I take Gordon. Would not even think otherwise if it was Rafa vs. Eddie Cummings or Tonon, or whoever. That is the crux of the Lo p4p argument for me.
 
Junior Skilo said:
Do the competitors have to pay?.. Or are they subsidised by the night time students?



I totally agree it would be a super close fight... The consensus is quiet clear, Rafa is seen as the best technician in BJJ at the moment... But when we take a deeper look, his technically ability does not separate him from best in the the next division up

Thats why Leandro's accomplishments are so astounding... Beating Michael Langhi as well as Lucas Lepri at lightweight.. Then Otavio Sousa at Middleweight... Then Romulo Barral, Tarsis Humphreys and Gabriel Arges at Medium Heavyweight... While we ponder on if Rafa could beat Lepri.. Lo has already beaten Lepri multiple times at lightweight then moved up twice... Beating other World Champs along the way
Click to expand...

If Rafa was bigger framed and put on weight the way Lo has, I have no doubt he could beat Lepri. I think he's better than Lepri. Lo has moved up and it's been amazing to watch, but he's also...moved up. He's gotten bigger. It's not like he's been beating elite guys who outweigh him by 20 lbs, he's just shown that his game works pretty well even as he's gotten bigger.

If any of these guys are the same size, Rafa beats everyone. Which is pretty much the definition of P4P. It has nothing to do with how many weight classes you move up IMO.
 
trustdoesntrust said:
Leandro Lo vs. Gordon Ryan no-gi sub only I take Gordon. Would not even think otherwise if it was Rafa vs. Eddie Cummings or Tonon, or whoever. That is the crux of the Lo p4p argument for me.
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Forget No Gi Sub Only... BJJ is not just about submissions... Judo is not just about Ippons... Wrestling is not just about Pins... Positional control/dominance is at the heart of all major grappling arts... Greco/Freestlye/Folkstkye Wrestling... Judo... Sambo and BJJ all value positional control in some shape or other... As a fan of grapping... Sub only is worthless in my opinion

Uchi Mata said:
If Rafa was bigger framed and put on weight the way Lo has, I have no doubt he could beat Lepri. I think he's better than Lepri. Lo has moved up and it's been amazing to watch, but he's also...moved up. He's gotten bigger. It's not like he's been beating elite guys who outweigh him by 20 lbs, he's just shown that his game works pretty well even as he's gotten bigger.

If any of these guys are the same size, Rafa beats everyone. Which is pretty much the definition of P4P. It has nothing to do with how many weight classes you move up IMO.
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Even if Rafa put on the weight I still think it would be a toss up.. He defintaly has the frame for lightweight... Would love for him to test himself

Lo just submitted Joao Rocha at the Pans, and also has beaten Leo Nogueira and Alexander Trans... All elite guys who should have at least 20lbs on him when they competed against eachother
 
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