is leandro the p4p king atm?

trustdoesntrust said:
Roger won at ADCC, and had a very high submission rate in IBJJF. Lo almost never does no-gi events, has never (?) done ADCC, and tends to win his IBJJF matches with an extremely point-centric, stall-heavy strategy.
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Very high is no an addecuate word to describe what roger did...
 
trustdoesntrust said:
You and I perceive him differently. Watch his Pans match against Matheus Diniz (or his loss to Tarsis Humphreys at the Five Tournament the week before) and tell me that's the performance of an all time P4P great. You never see that from Rafa, Buchecha, Roger, Marcelo, etc.
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Seriously? How about Rafa Mendes vs Clark Gracie? (who is amazing but not top level in his weight)? Rafa didn't look to hot there and couldn't do much to Clark. Leandro has dominated Clark in the past. Rafa has never done what Lo has done. That is step out of the comfort zone of his weight class and test himself against bigger guys. The only time I recall is at the ADW Pro no0gi division, which was a long time ago. I'm just saying that if Rafa stepped outside his weight, he would look much more mortal than he does now. That would play heavily into p4p rankings, especially in a sport where there is an open class. You see Lo going up in weight, Lucas Lepri doing open class divisions where he faces guys like Felipe Pena. Lets see Rafa vs Lepri first or something similar then we could talk.
 
BJJ Coffee Drinker said:
Seriously? How about Rafa Mendes vs Clark Gracie? (who is amazing but not top level in his weight)? Rafa didn't look to hot there and couldn't do much to Clark. Leandro has dominated Clark in the past. Rafa has never done what Lo has done. That is step out of the comfort zone of his weight class and test himself against bigger guys. The only time I recall is at the ADW Pro no0gi division, which was a long time ago. I'm just saying that if Rafa stepped outside his weight, he would look much more mortal than he does now. That would play heavily into p4p rankings, especially in a sport where there is an open class. You see Lo going up in weight, Lucas Lepri doing open class divisions where he faces guys like Felipe Pena. Lets see Rafa vs Lepri first or something similar then we could talk.
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Puh-leaze. Rafa has won every type of tournament, gi and no-gi, usually submitting his opponents, and with a string of clear victories, (including a brutal armbar) against fellow all-time great Cobrinha. That a normally aggressive competitor like Clark Gracie is compelled to stall his way to a draw would seem to be the exception that proves the rule. Lo has nothing like the long resume of impressive wins that Rafa has (what is Lo's best win? beating Lepri by points at Copa Podio?), much less the technical revolution Rafa has brought to BJJ.
 
trustdoesntrust said:
Puh-leaze. Rafa has won every type of tournament, gi and no-gi, usually submitting his opponents, and with a string of clear victories, (including a brutal armbar) against fellow all-time great Cobrinha. That a normally aggressive competitor like Clark Gracie is compelled to stall his way to a draw would seem to be the exception that proves the rule. Lo has nothing like the long resume of impressive wins that Rafa has (what is Lo's best win? beating Lepri by points at Copa Podio?), much less the technical revolution Rafa has brought to BJJ.
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Rafa maybe the most technical fighter currently competing in BJJ... But you can not discredit Leandro's amazing feat... He has won the Worlds in multiple weight clases... How he wins can be up for debate... But P4P, until Rafa puts himself on the line... There is no discussion here


Leandro has beaten a much higher level of competition than Rafa... Rafa was won 6 World Titles in the same division... Leandro has won 5 in 3 different divisions... This is not to taking anything away from Rafa
but the facts speak for themselves


Here is a list of the World Champions Leandro Lo has beaten since being a blackbelt:

Romulo Barral
Lucas Lepri
Andre Galvao
Claudio Calasans
Tarsis Humphreys
Otavio Sousa
Leo Nogueira
Michael Langhi
Augusto Mendes
Felipe Pena
Gilbert Burns
Gabriel Arges
Sergio Moraes

Other notable Wins:

Keenan Cornelius
Erberth Santos
Joao Rocha
Alexander Trans
 
I'm not sure what y'all think 'P4P' means. It's decidedly not about dominance across weight classes, it's about if everyone weighed the same who would win. I think given his total dominance of a very competitive weight class that Rafa is clearly the P4P best at the moment, though not necessarily the best across weight classes or when jumping weight classes.
 
Uchi Mata said:
I'm not sure what y'all think 'P4P' means. It's decidedly not about dominance across weight classes, it's about if everyone weighed the same who would win. I think given his total dominance of a very competitive weight class that Rafa is clearly the P4P best at the moment, though not necessarily the best across weight classes or when jumping weight classes.
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For Me Leandro is actually proving in reality, that his technique transcends different weight clases... Just like Kyle Dake did... which also has bearing in P4P discussions

Rafa's weight class is not competitive after Cobrinha who is there?.. They are miles above everyone else... Grippo, Mario Reis, Moizinho, Samir Chantre... Marcio Andre did flip things up last year but he has been competing a Lightweight this year

Compare that to Lightweight Lucas Lepri, JT Torres, Edwin Najmi, Roberto Satoshi, Michael Langhi, Gabriel Rollo, Francisco Iturralde, Michael Liera

I actually think Rafa could move up and do well at lightweight... Regardless his division is not as competitive as Lightweight
 
trustdoesntrust said:
Puh-leaze. Rafa has won every type of tournament, gi and no-gi, usually submitting his opponents, and with a string of clear victories, (including a brutal armbar) against fellow all-time great Cobrinha. That a normally aggressive competitor like Clark Gracie is compelled to stall his way to a draw would seem to be the exception that proves the rule. Lo has nothing like the long resume of impressive wins that Rafa has (what is Lo's best win? beating Lepri by points at Copa Podio?), much less the technical revolution Rafa has brought to BJJ.
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I will not argue with you there. Rafa undoubtedly has made the largest influence on BJJ since, forever. Maybe since Terere. He revolutionized the way people use DLR and guard passing, especially the leg drags. What I'm saying is people think he has this aura of invincibility due to his performances, which are very impressive. I don't remember the last time he looked like he was in any real danger. But, this all occurs in his weight class. When he does face opponents outside his weight class, he is usually the bigger competitor (exception vs Clark/Rodolfo). When he faced Bruno Malfacine who is 2 weight classes lighter, Bruno gave him all he could handle but Bruno didn't look too "invincible" as if he would had he just stuck to doing rooster weight. Rafa has never put himself in this kind of situation as of recent at all. I feel this disqualifies him as being discussed as a p4p great, especially in a combat sport that actually has an open class division. Many of the other competitors being talked about in this p4p thread have competed across multiple weight classes frequently. If you want to talk about who would win if everyone was the same size, I think we could probably give that to Bruno Malfacine, but thats not whats being discussed. What is being discussed is the accomplishment of competitors competing across multiple weight classes and their achievements through that. Rafa is not even relevant in this discussion
 
Junior Skilo said:
For Me Leandro is actually proving in reality, that his technique transcends different weight clases... Just like Kyle Dake did... which also has bearing in P4P discussions

Rafa's weight class is not competitive after Cobrinha who is there?.. They are miles above everyone else... Grippo, Mario Reis, Moizinho, Samir Chantre... Marcio Andre did flip things up last year but he has been competing a Lightweight this year

Compare that to Lightweight Lucas Lepri, JT Torres, Edwin Najmi, Roberto Satoshi, Michael Langhi, Gabriel Rollo, Francisco Iturralde, Michael Liera

I actually think Rafa could move up and do well at lightweight... Regardless his division is not as competitive as Lightweight
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Kyle Dake, like Lo, actually got bigger. Significantly. So I'm not sure I see the relevance. It's not like Lo beat a bunch of elite HWs as a LW, he bulked up a great deal to compete at HW. Good for him, it's impressive and I look forward to seeing how he does against the elite at a higher weight class, but it doesn't seem all that relevant. I also think that FW is super tough, it only looks weak because Rafa and Cobrinha are so dominant.
 
hard to argue against him at the moment. He's on a roll right now
 
Uchi Mata said:
Kyle Dake, like Lo, actually got bigger. Significantly. So I'm not sure I see the relevance. It's not like Lo beat a bunch of elite HWs as a LW, he bulked up a great deal to compete at HW. Good for him, it's impressive and I look forward to seeing how he does against the elite at a higher weight class, but it doesn't seem all that relevant. I also think that FW is super tough, it only looks weak because Rafa and Cobrinha are so dominant.
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When people say who is the best colloge wrestler of all time Kyle Dake is now part of the discussion, alongside the likes of Cael Sanderson, Dan Gable etc... Why?.. Because he won 4 titles in four different weight clases back to back

Leandro Lo has won 5 World Championships back to back.. Is now going for a 6th in a 4th weight class... Yes Rafa may be the more technical of the two... But David Taylor was also viewed as being better than Kyle Dake in the technique department.. But yet Dake beat him twice in Folkstyle and also in Freestle... Who would you say was the more technical of the two, Rodolfo or Buchecha?


In 8 years Rafa has won 6 Mundial titles in the same division.. In 6 years Leandro has won 5 titles in 3 divisions

Rafa competed in 100 matches in that 8 year period.. Leandro competed 224 matches in that 6 year period

Leandro has beaten mutiple world champions in different weight classes

Rafa has not faced the level or volume competition Leandro has... Apart from Cobrinha, Tanqhino and Marcio Andre who would be on your list of high level opponets that he has beaten???


Lets use Marcelo as an example.. Look at the list of killers he beat at his weight... not taking into consideration any of his absolute victories...

Andre Galvao
Murilo Santana
Claudio Calasans
Lucas Leite
Pablo Popovitch
Leonardo Santos
Kron Gracie
Victor Estima
Vitor Shaolin
Renzo Gracie
Thales Leites
Cassio Werneck
Bruno Bastos


In my opionion level of competition faced is big factor.. and Rafa's resume does not do justice to his outstanding ability which I hold in very high regard
 
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Some good arguments here on both sides.
 
excellent guard, relentless guard pass. yes.
 
people here love jacare but he was no different than lo he would stall take guys down use his athleticism i love rafa but lo is p4p now due to being 167 and still winning at heavy weight today is crazy lol id love to see him vs marcelo
 
flikerstance said:
lo is p4p now due to being 167
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You are aware that Leandro Lo is not 167lbs any more?

buchecha-lo2.jpg
 
Beside the fact that he left our team, he's a humble dude and work hard af. To me he is in the conversation with Roger, Buchecha, Rodolfo and Xande... Id give advantage to the other 3 bc they were OW champions... But no way Rafa is the GOAT, he's game works on his division and ends there. Not taking the talent away from Rafa, but would his game work at HW? I dont think so
 
just cause he gained doesnt mean he cant be 167 his frame is what matters like maia now at 170 murdering people
 
alissonsp93 said:
Beside the fact that he left our team, he's a humble dude and work hard af. To me he is in the conversation with Roger, Buchecha, Rodolfo and Xande... Id give advantage to the other 3 bc they were OW champions... But no way Rafa is the GOAT, he's game works on his division and ends there. Not taking the talent away from Rafa, but would his game work at HW? I dont think so
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he left your team?
 
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