is Jonnie Candito on natty?

To not cheat and be dishonest? I feel like lifters and bodybuilders are the two who always pretend to be clean when they are dirty. If you are going to do it, don't try to pretend otherwise.

They have a lot to lose by being honest, sometimes. Sponsorships, titles.. If they say they're clean and they piss clean then who are we to say otherwise? What other proof do you need?

Athlete are expected to perform better and better every year. They're expected to train longer hours and put their bodies on the line.. Lets be honest, how shit will some sporting events be if the athletes were 100% clean? If you want to see 'natural' bodybuilders then look at the natural categories, they look shit.

I personally don't care, it doesn't effect me so why would I let it bother me? Whether it's dishonest or not, who gives a shit?!

But back to Candito. He says he's clean, and his tests negative.. so get over it.
 
As a dedicated non-profesional athlete (IE my accomplishments only matter to me) I think that were I to take drugs, in the future I would not take as much pride in those accomplishments. And would feel a nagging guilt if I were to keep it a secret.
 
They have a lot to lose by being honest, sometimes. Sponsorships, titles.. If they say they're clean and they piss clean then who are we to say otherwise? What other proof do you need?

Athlete are expected to perform better and better every year. They're expected to train longer hours and put their bodies on the line.. Lets be honest, how shit will some sporting events be if the athletes were 100% clean? If you want to see 'natural' bodybuilders then look at the natural categories, they look shit.

That's the life they chose. They decided to get into a profession that is rampant with cheating and dishonesty. As a result they are painted with the same brush.

No interest in looking at any bodybuilders.
 
Well, one way to look at it is that if a particular sport is your life its how you make a living and your competition is on the gear, then you have to be.
I'd gladly jab and still hold my head up high if I was the very best, because I know that that's what it takes to be on top.
Also, people like you and me can jab and never be on their level, not in a lifetime.. their accomplishments are achieved through hard work, dedication and in most cases genetics.

This is why when Lance Armstrong got ridiculed it bothered me.. he wasn't the only fucker out there 'cheating' yet he was made an example of. What that man achieved was incredible, and now his name is mud.

Also, what btwestler said. I know plenty of guys who use/used steroids and they're some of the nicest blokes you could meet. Despite using steroids, they're still busting their ass. They're not bigger or stronger than everyone else in the gym because they jab, they're bigger and stronger because they have the commitment to put in the time and effort.

Don't let the small handful of dickheads cloud your judgement.

Lance was singled out and ridiculed (a lot LOT less than he deserved) not because he doped... but becouse he was:

1.- A bully who made the life of former colleagues and friends MISERABLE. The most obvious case was Andreus: Frank and Betsy Andreu stood with him by his bed when he was sick with cancer... and both witnessed his confession to the doctors about all his doping, yet later on, when Lance was rich and powerful, he went out of his way to threaten and bully the Andreus to sickening lengths. Also the Hamilton and Simeoni stories.

2.- He wasn't just another cyclist in the hands of a dubious doctor cheating, HE RAN THE FUCKING THING. He had the UCI in his pocket, paying to hide positive test, and even making the UCI go after other teams who he feared on the road.

3.- He stood in the top of the tour de France podium giving a speech about how he was so sorry for those "can't believe in miracles", among other such stories. What a scumbag.

4.- All the dubious morality about how he run Livestrong... but that's a different can of worms.


Also, "hard work and dedication" come much more easily when you're injecting yourself head work capacity, dedication and motivation. And also when you can win things (fame, money, competitions) thanks to the drugs that some of your rivals aren't using.
 
They have a lot to lose by being honest, sometimes. Sponsorships, titles.. If they say they're clean and they piss clean then who are we to say otherwise? What other proof do you need?

Athlete are expected to perform better and better every year. They're expected to train longer hours and put their bodies on the line.. Lets be honest, how shit will some sporting events be if the athletes were 100% clean? If you want to see 'natural' bodybuilders then look at the natural categories, they look shit.

I personally don't care, it doesn't effect me so why would I let it bother me? Whether it's dishonest or not, who gives a shit?!

But back to Candito. He says he's clean, and his tests negative.. so get over it.
You make a lot of good points and perhaps I was a bit too harsh and generalizing in my initial statement.

I can definitely understand the pressure there is when competing at a high level, especially when drug use is rampant. Let's be honest here, most, if not all of them, juice at that level. Also plenty of high level guys, especially competitors, are decent dudes. However, my point was more directed towards the so call "tough guys" and bullies who jack themselves up and think they are somehow special because they inject themselves. There is a lot of that fake tough guy bullshit going on on this forum as well. See, because this is where we disagree.

They are not performing the way they are, because they are more dedicated. Plenty of people are dedicated and work their ass off, but can simply not reach the same level because they are not on juice. Who is to say what their natural limitations are? Or how they react to the enchancements? It's a cop out claiming "they are getting there by hard work", when they have practicly made a science out of cheating the system and putting all kinds of shit in their bodies. Obviously it takes work, you cannot get anywhere without work, but it's a false premise.

This brings me to another thing that bothers me, the dishonesty. That is why I have respect for the guys clearly coming out and stating that they are on roids, knowing they would not be at the level they are at without it.

I understand I'm painting with a very broad brush here, but I think a lot of people are not acknowledging the effect juicing and PEDS have on a person, ESPECIALLY in powerlifting.
 
I understand I'm painting with a very broad brush here, but I think a lot of people are not acknowledging the effect juicing and PEDS have on a person, ESPECIALLY in powerlifting.

Help you recover from training faster so you can work harder, at a higher capacity?
 
You said that in response to my post insinuating that I was saying it is a fact that Jesse Norris is on Steroids. I know exactly what you were getting at. Furthermore, to have blind allegiance that everyone who is a super athlete is absolutely not taking part in unfair advantages is also a terrible way to think. Most of all it is dishonest to up and coming wanna be athletes to say that yes you can do this as a natural when the evidence for(in this case powerlifters/strength athletes)says that a lot of the elite athletes of this type do take drugs. That is not an opinion that is a fact btw. I alluded to this in that other thread if you feel like searching for it.

What I took from your post is that in your mind you have decided that Norris is using steroids but that after some arbitrary amount of time of testing clean you will then decide to change your mind and believe he is clean.

While I think that many top athletes are on PEDs of some kind I don't just assume that everyone is and I also don't assume that because someone was caught for one kind of PED that he is automatically on more PEDs. There might be evidences that suggests he is on steroids but no proof. Furthermore, I think the logic of needing some arbitrary amount of time to pass before you believe someone is clean is flawed. Right now what I understand from your posts is that you believe Norris is on steroids and is currently "getting away with it". What is going to change over the years that makes that any different? He currently tests clean for steroids and in this hypothetical future he continues to test clean so nothing has changed. How many tests does he have to pass to meet your arbitrary criteria for being clean?

If you want to be skeptical of him then great, I'd agree with you. However making up your mind about his guilt without any proof is a joke.

To not cheat and be dishonest? I feel like lifters and bodybuilders are the two who always pretend to be clean when they are dirty. If you are going to do it, don't try to pretend otherwise.

What other way do lifters have to prove that they are not cheating and are honest than testing clean?
 

Interesting post. I like how candid he is. However it seems like it is implied that what he is doing is now is practicly nothing, which it is not. It's still a lot and it's still drugs. It's just not an insane amount, like he did before.

Yeah with PL, I mean in strenght sports where steroid use is much closer related to performance than say, using steroids in MMA(which still gives an advantage). Better recovery and increased arousel are also very important when it comes to building and performing.


See this is a very good attempt and a very interesting article. I like Greg Nucklos, he tries to put together real science.

A few glaring holes in this piece though, as he admits.

1. He is assuming that the drug tested lifters are indeed drug free, which we know some of them are not. The basis for his 10% relative performance gain is flawed. In that regard, I did not know it was out of the system so quickly:

"They got two samples from Pat Mendes that were positive for human growth hormone, which is remarkable because hGH has a half life of only 10-20 minutes."

2. The studies he uses are too few and not big enough sample sizes. Also the Yu study is pretty much worthless, as he mentions. Also, very importantly, the absolute strenght gains and so forth are much bigger than 10%, as he clarifies:

"You can see the difference in the Bashin studies – 100-700% greater total mass gain, 50-1,000% greater increases in muscle thickness or muscle area, and 100-200% greater absolute strength gains in the same time period."..... "If you simply care about absolute gains in muscle or absolute gains in strength, the difference is much larger than 10%. However, this article was written for strength athletes competing in sports with weight classes. In that context, increases in relative performance (Wilks or Sinclair score) are what matter. And for relative performance, steroids seem to give you a roughly 10% advantage."

3. The studies he cites only used Test, and not the vast array of other substances avaliable. This is a problem. He counters this by using the tested/untested records, but again, it's conjecture. I do feel like it's well explained and he is probably not too far off.

4. He narrows it down to 5-15% relative performance improvement in strenght sports. Let's assume that it is 10%, at the highest level, as he theorizes. 10% on the highest level is massive! A poster in the comment section explained it pretty well:

"Just as an example, I’ve looked at the weightlifing totals from the last Olympic Games for a few weight classes, and those 10% make the difference between the Olympic Champion and someone who wouldn’t have placed in the top 10."

Well thought out though!
 
I get what you are saying Sano but I think a lot of the science is the best you are likely to get given the nature of PED use.

Also on point 4, that's assuming that the winner is on something and the person finishing outside the top ten isn't. What are we left with if they are all using. A bit like lance Armstrong again, if they had tried to give his wins to the next person in line they would have had to go to like the 7th person one year because everyone else had been banned.
 
I get what you are saying Sano but I think a lot of the science is the best you are likely to get given the nature of PED use.

Also on point 4, that's assuming that the winner is on something and the person finishing outside the top ten isn't. What are we left with if they are all using. A bit like lance Armstrong again, if they had tried to give his wins to the next person in line they would have had to go to like the 7th person one year because everyone else had been banned.
Well it's just that not enough studies and research is out there, probably because it's an illegal substance. PEDs also vary a lot in what they do and what their effects and side effects are. I'm by no means an expert though!

The jump from from champion to outside of the top ten was just to illustrate how big of a difference 10% of relative performance really is. Considering they are all using the playing field is evened out yes. Still I don't subscribe to the 10%, because the premise is flawed. Reading through the comments it seems like everyone agrees. I mean, as I said the drug tested comparisions are unusable(as some of the records have most likely been users, they know how to cycle these things), and the rest of the data is not substantial enough and relies way too much on conjecture. Only two studies, a big difference in gains, only using testosterone, not enough people partipating, only conducted for 10-20 weeks, and so forth.

They don't take into account things like previous training experience either or increased recovery over longer periods of training, and a lot of others things. Also I remember there were studies that suggested that the PL'ers who did best was the one with the highest amount of fat free muscle index pr kg/lbs(not so much in higher weight classes), and steroids definitely increase your muscle potential. I can't find it right now though.

This article is also interesting regarding previous steroid use and strenght, and tells a little about how it perhaps gives you an advantage years down the road:

http://www.the-aps.org/mm/hp/Audiences/Public-Press/Archive/08/30.html
 
Well it's just that not enough studies and research is out there, probably because it's an illegal substance.

There are lots of studies out there. You realise a lot of steroids (the majority) were developed by pharmaceutical companies to treat medical issues, right? So them being studied isn't the issue. Also, you say "illegal substance" like it's one steroid. There are many.

The issue is that it would never be deemed ethical to study them at the doses people use for performance enhancement, or even to study them for that purpose.
 
There are lots of studies out there. You realise a lot of steroids (the majority) were developed by pharmaceutical companies to treat medical issues, right? So them being studied isn't the issue. Also, you say "illegal substance" like it's one steroid. There are many.

The issue is that it would never be deemed ethical to study them at the doses people use for performance enhancement, or even to study them for that purpose.
Yeah you are right. It's probably more of an ethical thing. Still leaves us without a lot of data in the quantities they are being used. Again, I've never taken steroids, or any other PED, so I'm by no means an expert on all the intricacies.
 
The idea that because "everyone" (it's never everyone but whatever) takes drugs, then it's a level play field is flawed.

First I'll give cycling example, because that's something I understand better. Some cheaters used to say that it was a "level play field" because everyone took EPO, but the thing is... those with a higher natural hematocrit count, lost their natural advantage due to better genetics that those with a lower count. Also, when the 50% limit was enforced, those with a higher natural level could only cheat 2-3% but other could use EPO to gain 5-8%. Not fair, not even. And there's also the money problem: some can pay for better drugs and better ways to mask them, some can't, and that's a huge difference.

I don't now much about strength sports, but I guess that people with lower natural testosterone would gain more from cheating than others, for example.
 
I remember a documentary/ study we had to watch in our stats class about steroids.
They did an entire training program of double blind (one administered steroids the other administered placebo) of previous high level athletes and ran them through a gauntlet of various tests of strength, speed, endurance etc in a level playing field between the athletes. After all the tallies were compiled, the group on gear significantly out performed the non geared group. They compared inter and intra levels and results of the groups.

I can't remember the name of it, but it was well executed but had to be done in a foreign country due to ethical issues. So, while a lot of studies have been done on steroids, not all have been done for the parameters of specific sports and their attributes, as some have various pro's and con's. Bigger, faster, stronger is a great doc to watch also. It is hard to perform certain studies on their efficacy and safety because ethics boards will never, if not rarely pass them (my university has a no steroid test policy, among other no go's). I wish we could test studies on them to see the whole 9 yards.
 
What other way do lifters have to prove that they are not cheating and are honest than testing clean?

Clean up the sport/industry or deal with and accept the stigma. As a spectator, I want the greatest athletes that science can create, but that doesn't give them a pass that they are cheating and dishonest when they willingly break the rules and pretend to be natural.
 
Clean up the sport/industry or deal with and accept the stigma.

What the fuck do you think they're continuously trying to do with ever more strict testing protocols?

What a bullshit response.
 
What the fuck do you think they're continuously trying to do with ever more strict testing protocols?

What a bullshit response.

Are strength sports clean?
 
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