Is Jon Jones beating his opponents at LHW with his skill or his size?

[Sapp]

He IS the best wrestler at LHW.

He's outwrestled everybody including DC in both fights.

You should compare DC and Jones's wrestling careers. Jon is the best grappler at LHW, but he's not a better wrestler than DC, not by a long shot.

 

[VIPERdude]

I've got a degree and a family. You have redundant bullshit topics that discredit a man's ability for no reason. Go watch the Dark Knight you fucking hack

Like......really.......hack.......i got a degree and a family.....on sherdog talking shit

 

[MikeMcMann]

Well...I just feel he really is not GREAT at anything. He beat DC an Olympian at wrestling him because he was bigger. He is far from the best striker as he gets hit often but proven to have a great chin so far. Gus is a skilled striker, hence why he bloodied Jones's face up. Jones has his crazy spinning elbows and kicks but that is his style. Jones was so much bigger than Shogun even though Rua isnt the same PRIDE Shogun we knew.

Ya but you've really proven to be quite dumb on this topic.

Is all it takes to keep an olympic wrestler from forcing you into their world just being 'bigger'? Did every 'bigger' guy Cormier fought at HW beat him as well based on simply being 'bigger' and if not, why not? If they had the 'bigger' part what was missing?

When you fight guys who have super dominant skills, like you point out in MMA (they are great at something) it takes an enormous amount of skill to be able to nullify that dominant skill. If you don't have that super dominant skill yourself then you have to be the best generalist at everything to counter it.

Being the best generalist at everything (well rounded) as we've seen throughout MMA history is very rare but the few who achieve that high level of skill (Frank Shamrock being one of the first) can do great things in MMA against the specialist fighters who tend to still be more dominant in one area than others, because they can fight them everywhere.

 

[Chain Saw]

And Brock Lesnar out wrestled Cain and Randy....Better wrestler? Or monster?

Randy was 40 and Cain outwrestled Brock easily. Brock got one takedown on Cain then Cain controlled him and beat the shit out of him.

Not to mention that was at HW where there is a massive size difference.

Jon isn't more than 220 lbs when he enters the cage on fight night.

 

[Perrichet]

Pretty sure it's skill, since he's smaller than all of his opponents bar Machida. Tossed around 6'4 Bonnar at 20 years old like he's his son, murdered current One HW Champ Brandon Vera, destroyed former HW Vladmir Matyushenko and Jake O Brien, beat 6'5.5 Gus while not training properly. But ye he's still not proven v guys his size!

Lol at Jones being smaller than Shogun

 

[slipleft]

And Diaz is no Jones either, losing to RDA, Bendo and Conor all 5'9 or shorter. So Jones winning all the time is skill.

It's both. How is that not obvious lol. Would Jones win if he was 4'10" with a 40" reach and just rotund as fuck pushing the needle at 205? No.

Length is an advantage, just as is coordination, speed, skill, technique, experience, leverage, preparation, endurance, power, yadda yadda yadda.

Jones has a great combination of many 'fighting' attributes and is successful because of it.

 

[Elbower]

It's a combo of both skills and physical attributes,and also great coaching.Without Wink/Jack Jones would probably not have reached his full potential.

 

[Chain Saw]

You should compare DC and Jones's wrestling careers. Jon is the best grappler at LHW, but he's not a better wrestler than DC, not by a long shot.

I don't give a shit about their wrestling careers, I'm talking about MMA wrestling. What they've shown in their fights.

GSP is the best wrestler in WW history. He's never wrestled outside of MMA.

 

[Sapp]

Lol at Jones being smaller than Shogun

Poor Jones, the guy is always getting dwarfed by his opponents.

 

[VIPERdude]

Ya but you've really proven to be quite dumb on this topic.

Is all it takes to keep an olympic wrestler from forcing you into their world just being 'bigger'? Did every 'bigger' guy Cormier fought at HW beat him as well based on simply being 'bigger' and if not, why not? If they had the 'bigger' part what was missing?

When you fight guys who have super dominant skills, like you point out in MMA (they are great at something) it takes an enormous amount of skill to be able to nullify that dominant skill. If you don't have that super dominant skill yourself then you have to be the best generalist at everything to counter it.

Being the best generalist at everything (well rounded) as we've seen throughout MMA history is very rare but the few who achieve that high level of skill (Frank Shamrock being one of the first) can do great things in MMA against the specialist fighters who tend to still be more dominant in one area than others, because they can fight them everywhere.

So I ask a question, on an MMA forum...A thread that clearly is very divided throughout on opinions....Your opinion is what matters? Ok I got it, thats fair, discredit my knowledge all you want but I believe the purpose of the discussion was met. Still is being debated. SO sorry you dont approve of the thread. Conor vs Floyd is thread click away my friend

 

[MyEnglishIsPeperoni]

jones has a big dick ... thats his secret

 

[Sapp]

I don't give a shit about their wrestling careers, I'm talking about MMA wrestling. What they've shown in their fights.

GSP is the best wrestler in WW history. He's never wrestled outside of MMA.

Is it really the wrestling component which let Jon stuff DC's takedowns, though? I think it was the expert work in the clinch. DC would demolish Jon in a pure wrestling match when he doesn't have to worry about getting kneed in the body or elbowed in the head.

 

[VIPERdude]

Randy was 40 and Cain outwrestled Brock easily. Brock got one takedown on Cain then Cain controlled him and beat the shit out of him.

Not to mention that was at HW where there is a massive size difference.

Jon isn't more than 220 lbs when he enters the cage on fight night.

Yes...thats my point. Jons size on fight night is a huge advantage

 

[MikeMcMann]

How is it stupid when the argument has been an ongoing debate for many years. Asking for opinions of other on an MMA forum is the purpose of being here. You clearly have an opinion. So if the thread is dumb to you, then why do you contribute to a dumb thread lol?

as "others pointed out" I see many who "pointed out" the opposite with great points.

There are some really stupid people who continue to raise it, many as a way to bash Jones (who I hate) but beyond that it gets the deserved face palm.

I will say again that the ideal build for MMA for DECADES was seen as the more stocky grapplers build. No one, NO ONE, was saying, uh-oh here comes someone tall and lanky, the division is now fucked as this guy will dominate. That is because everyone expected that guy to get bullied, taken down an submitted or GnP by his stockier more powerful opponents.

What skill does it take to be stocky and powerful (Cain, Fedor) to simply muscle in, drag someone down and drop hammer fists? If you want to play this stupid game it is far easier to argue the grapplers build takes far less skill and that is why it has had more success.

Instead amongst thousands of wannabe MMA fighters you get two break throughs at the highest level (Jones, Anderson) and instead of recognizing that it is that they have a super high level of skill that allows them to negate the strengths of others and THEN impose their game you want to pretend that the Kendell Groves and Diabates of the world, should have easily been able to be dominant champs as that frame does not require skill to get their.

 

[Chain Saw]

Yes...thats my point. Jons size on fight night is a huge advantage

What do you think DC weighs when he gets in the cage?

They are the same weight.

 

[VIPERdude]

jones has a big dick ... thats his secret

 

[MyEnglishIsPeperoni]

Everybody is good at certain things because of their body type.

If Rampage didn't have incredibly powerful fast twitch muscle fibers, he wouldn't be able to perform the types of slams and he wouldn't have the KO power that he does. If DC wasn't stocky, short and powerful, he wouldn't be able to get in low and flip guys on their heads like he does. If Conor McGregor didn't have a freakishly long 74" reach, he wouldn't be able to manage the distance and counterstrike like he does.

Every body type has their own advantages over certain other body types. Its all about creating a style that best fits your body type, and then being able to employ that style in your fights.

If you think Jon wins just because he's tall and lanky, why hasn't Gustaffson dominated other LHWs like Jon has? Why isn't Stefan Struve dominating the HW division? Why wasn't Cody McKenzie as successful at FW as Max Holloway or Conor McGregor, when he is 6'0 with a 72" reach? Why did Chad Mendes beat the shit out of him when he's 5'6" with a 68" reach?

struve is lazy as fuck ... like most guys, who dont use their advanteges, they are either lazy as fuck or just dumb ... just like brock lesnar he had the strength and kurt said, if lesnar did more for his technique, he would be an olympic level wrestler he was either lazy as fuck or dumb.

my brother is also lazy as fuck, when it comes to his advantages, cuz he doesnt really care. i see this everytime in soccer/mma/boxing

 

[VIPERdude]

There are some really stupid people who continue to raise it, many as a way to bash Jones (who I hate) but beyond that it gets the deserved face palm.

I will say again that the ideal build for MMA for DECADES was seen as the more stocky grapplers build. No one, NO ONE, was saying, uh-oh here comes someone tall and lanky, the division is now fucked as this guy will dominate. That is because everyone expected that guy to get bullied, taken down an submitted or GnP by his stockier more powerful opponents.

What skill does it take to be stocky and powerful (Cain, Fedor) to simply muscle in, drag someone down and drop hammer fists? If you want to play this stupid game it is far easier to argue the grapplers build takes far less skill and that is why it has had more success.

Instead amongst thousands of wannabe MMA fighters you get two break throughs at the highest level (Jones, Anderson) and instead of recognizing that it is that they have a super high level of skill that allows them to negate the strengths of others and THEN impose their game you want to pretend that the Kendell Groves and Diabates of the world, should have easily been able to be dominant champs as that frame does not require skill to get their.

OK you make a good point. So why be A DICK about it? Im sure you can find better threads to spend your time on then.

 

[Chain Saw]

Is it really the wrestling component which let Jon stuff DC's takedowns, though? I think it was the expert work in the clinch. DC would demolish Jon in a pure wrestling match when he doesn't have to worry about getting kneed in the body or elbowed in the head.

In MMA wrestling, you have to factor all those things in.

If you can't factor in that you might get kneed, elbowed in the head or guillotined, and work around those things, then you're not a very good MMA wrestler.

Jon mixes it up better than anybody, and that's why he's the best.

 

[Chi-City]

I just wanna know who you think is a better grappler than jones at lhw?