Is Fedor the least impressive out of all the GOAT contenders?

[Luminosity]

You need better bait

 

[Sano]

Interesting argument. It doesn't usually play in GOAT of all time discussions. Less face it, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Jim Brown - all of their sports have progressed tremendously in the last 20 years, and in Brown and Ruth's case, much longer. Muhammad Ali's time was 40 years ago, so much has improved with athletics since then that its hard to compare. And yet fans still call them the GOAT's of their sport.

Or look at Jesse Owens. He's considered one of the greatest sprinters ever, only Bolt is considered better - and yet his best times would lose in a lot of high school races.

Or look at other fields. Physicists will tell you Sir Isaac Newton is, along with Einstein, the greatest physicist ever. But any BSc in physics can solve problems Newton couldn't even understand, let alone begin to solve. For that matter, there are physic's BSc's who can solve problems that Einstein couldn't solve - things progress.

Why are these obviously substandard by today's figures considered great? Because usually GOAT means the best of your time. If you go into university and tell everyone you're a better physicist than Newton or Einstein because you can solve problems they can't they'll laugh you out of the place. But that's what happens regularly in MMA GOAT discussions.

Who's the GOAT? I"ve no idea, its always an amusing read. But if it doesn't mean best of their day then its easy - whoever the current champ is, because that's the way things progress.

You mentioned Ali. Ali is a far better fighter than the current crop of HWs. A prime Ali would be a clear favourite against Joshue, Fury or Wilder. Not to mentioned Fraizer, Norton, Patterson, Holmes, Shavers, Foreman, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lennox so on.

I'll grant you the baseball and basketball examples, because I don't know anything about it. Still, if following the trend of other sports, most of it is part improved living conditions, part technology and part getting the specific body types for a sport right.

You mentioned Owens time would lose in most high school races, yet you fail to realise the context. I've written about this extensively before, but I'll gladly do it again. Owens ran on a cinder/dirt track, without starting blocks (basicly holes in sand) and with shit shoes. Rest assured that if he had ran today, he would have been one of the best in the world. This video talks about that and more, it's pretty interesting:


I don't think the would have beat Bolt necessarily, because Bolt is out of this world.

Speaking about T&F and the supposedly MASSIVE increase in athleticism, don't you find it odd that the mens long jump hasn't been beaten since 1968, hammer throw since 1988 and high + triple jump since 1996? Looking at the womens records, it's even more pronounced. Half of the world records in athletics are 20-40 years old. There is nothing new going on in the T&F world. If anything, other sports are only catching up.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_athletics)

Several studies suggest that we just about reached our physiological potential around 70/80s, and that scientific and technological progress is the thing putting us over the edge.

The physics example is poor. Sure, some random dude can solve problems that Newton and Einstein couldn't, but that is ENTIRELY because of them. Einstein basicly turned everything we know about physics on its head. He changed the entire landscape of the universe. Yes, knowledge, theories and evidence is accumulated, and thus we're standing on the shoulder of giants and can increasingly solve more challenging problems, but that doesn't speak to our ability and it's not relevant to the athlete discussion.

Point being, the improvement of athleticism and evolution of athletes is vastly overrated. It is however, in a sport like MMA, much more organised now that it was 20 years ago.

 

[Bubblun]

You mentioned Ali. Ali is a far better fighter than the current crop of HWs. A prime Ali would be a clear favourite against Joshue, Fury or Wilder. Not to mentioned Fraizer, Norton, Patterson, Holmes, Shavers, Foreman, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Lennox so on.

I'll grant you the baseball and basketball examples, because I don't know anything about it. Still, if following the trend of other sports, most of it is part improved living conditions, part technology and part getting the specific body types for a sport right.

You mentioned Owens time would lose in most high school races, yet you fail to realise the context. I've written about this extensively before, but I'll gladly do it again. Owens ran on a cinder/dirt track, without starting blocks (basicly holes in sand) and with shit shoes. Rest assured that if he had ran today, he would have been one of the best in the world. This video talks about that and more, it's pretty interesting:


I don't think the would have beat Bolt necessarily, because Bolt is out of this world.

Speaking about T&F and the supposedly MASSIVE increase in athleticism, don't you find it odd that the mens long jump hasn't been beaten since 1968, hammer throw since 1988 and high + triple jump since 1996? Looking at the womens records, it's even more pronounced. Half of the world records in athletics are 20-40 years old. There is nothing new going on in the T&F world. If anything, other sports are only catching up.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_athletics)

Several studies suggest that we just about reached our physiological potential around 70/80s, and that scientific and technological progress is the thing putting us over the edge.

The physics example is poor. Sure, some random dude can solve problems that Newton and Einstein couldn't, but that is ENTIRELY because of them. Einstein basicly turned everything we know about physics on its head. He changed the entire landscape of the universe. Yes, knowledge, theories and evidence is accumulated, and thus we're standing on the shoulder of giants and can increasingly solve more challenging problems, but that doesn't speak to our ability and it's not relevant to the athlete discussion.

Point being, the improvement of athleticism and evolution of athletes is vastly overrated. It is however, in a sport like MMA, much more organised now that it was 20 years ago.

Dude, again?

 

[Sano]

Dude, again?

If warranted.

 

[giusti825]

not to anyone who watched his fights....

 

[emax]

It seems clear that placing Fedor above St Pierre at this point is a major stretch at best. That said, Fedor is the type of guy you can take one look at and determine he was never abusing performance enhancers the way Jones or Anderson were. I mean, even just look at Jones' physique in the second Jones DC fight vs Fedor at any fight he's ever been in. The difference is rather staggering, and Sonnen said it best when it comes to how obvious it makes it as to what extent guys who look a certain way are placing unnatural substances in their body. It's not fully clear yet the extent to which it alters their legacies, relative to each other, but it's undoubtedly a major factor in determining how Fedor's record looks against them.

 

[dfoster]

He was 39 and 40 when those happened. That was 6 and 7 years after his 10 year undefeated run. Everyone slows down and declines and loses eventually.

GSP got KO'ed at 26 by Matt Serra. Should that take him out of the GOAT conversation?

But Serra was the #1 contender while Maldonado and Mitrione were legit cans who couldn't hack it in the UFC.

GSP came back and became champ while Fedor came back and got KTFO'd

 

[Haifisch]

Aftermath:
Win 19–1 Kevin Randleman Submission (kimura) Pride Critical Countdown 2004 20 June 2004 1 1:33

I would say this feat alone is more impressive than all the other greats' feats combined. Add to it the fact that he dominated his division in a decisive way for a long, long time, without getting busted for PEDs. Add to it the fact that many of today's greats look up to him as an inspiration.

When you consider all these things, you can just kill yourself, TS.

 

[DayV]

An interesting statistic, there are not 230 pounds heavyweights in the UFC today, let alone the top 220 pounds heavyweights that were in Pride and the UFC 10 years ago.
Smaller heavyweights are extinct, a 223-236 pounds heavyweight with a belly like Fedor would be a smaller, weaker LHW these days, Cormier was heavier than him on fight night against Rumble.

Rules and cage also have a certain part in that.

USA Unified rules and cage with fence are much more clinch intensive than Pride and ring.

Weight advantage gives edge for fence walling and when fighter pushes opponent to the fence, tries to hit him from the clinch, wrestle him, or grab his legs on the fence.

It is very different from fighting in the ring with ropes, also Pride refs used to beak clinch much sooner. American rules allow much more working in the clinch where size gives advantage.


Also reach advantage is bigger in the octagon than in the ring because the space is bigger. It is much more difficult to close the distance, or to cutt off and corner people in octagon than in the ring. Fighters with big reach, height advantage and good movement like Anderson or Jones are very difficult to hit in big open space.

Those are the reasons for modern flood of weight cutting where everybody want to gain size / weight and height advantage.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

You mentioned Ali. Ali is a far better fighter than the current crop of HWs. A prime Ali would be a clear favourite against Joshue, Fury or Wilder.

Ali would have gotten KTFO by all three of them. They are way too big and strong for him.

 

[Ghostoftheville]

You need better bait

I don't know, it got him 13 pages worth of comments on a commonly used topic.

 

[Sano]

Ali would have gotten KTFO by all three of them. They are way too big and strong for him.

I highly doubt that. Everything can happen, but Ali would clearly be the favourite. Ali also had a fucking iron chin, he fought some of the hardest HW hitters of all time, including Foreman and Fraizer, and he was never KO'd once.

Joshua just went toe to toe with Takam, did you watch the fight? What do you think that Tyson would have done to Joshua?





What do you think watching those videos?

 

[Ghostoftheville]

Aftermath:
Win 19–1 Kevin Randleman Submission (kimura) Pride Critical Countdown 2004 20 June 2004 1 1:33

I would say this feat alone is more impressive than all the other greats' feats combined. Add to it the fact that he dominated his division in a decisive way for a long, long time, without getting busted for PEDs. Add to it the fact that many of today's greats look up to him as an inspiration.

When you consider all these things, you can just kill yourself, TS.

I don't see how recovering from a slam proves any point on behalf of Fedor, the same argument that Fedor was no longer in his prime when he began losing to legit heavyweights could be used here in defense in Randleman who was already 15-7 at the time of this fight with loses to Liddell, Rampage, Sakuraba, Couture, Bas and at 33 was a year younger than Fedor during his slide against top competition. I say this as somebody that is a fan and believes Fedor belongs in the conversation, just not the clear #1.

 

[MartinPocrezze]

Look TS is a salty fan of a dickpills Anderson cheater. And love and affection is giving him erection

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

Not in 2002 it wasn't.

Yup... that's why guys like Gil Gastilo and Renato were getting title shots.

 

[Hotora86]

I don't see how anybody could convince you or why they would even bother. Any fighter in the GOAT discussion can typically be ripped to pieces by someone with an agenda.
Personally I think the GOAT is GSP but an argument can be made for several fighters.

Common sense on Sherdog? You must be from another forum...

 

[MyEnglishIsPeperoni]

I don't see how recovering from a slam proves any point on behalf of Fedor, the same argument that Fedor was no longer in his prime when he began losing to legit heavyweights could be used here in defense in Randleman who was already 15-7 at the time of this fight with loses to Liddell, Rampage, Sakuraba, Couture, Bas and at 33 was a year younger than Fedor during his slide against top competition. I say this as somebody that is a fan and believes Fedor belongs in the conversation, just not the clear #1.

im sure that even his trainer said, that fedor didnt take the training as srs as back then ... that was before strikeforce. imo its a mix of both --- mentally/body. you can be the most athletic guy guy in your 30s and it still doesnt matter, when you dont give a fuck or your head isnt there.


ps: "legit" HWs ... so cro cop and big nog werent legit? lel

 

[mjfan23]

Didn’t Anderson fail yet another drug test ?

 

[Bob Gray]

Oh, sorry.... "ducking" is offending your liberal senses.

Let me re-word it.


They both had the chance to fight Fedor and they both chose to avoid it.

Except none of it happened. You can keep typing it but I can type that Fedor ducked OVereem in Strikefrce. Doesnt make it true.

 

[The Penetrator]

Question, if todays HW champs, lets say Stipe, is manhandling Anthony Hamilton, Mark Godbeer and Daniel Spitz in between ragdolling Werdum and JDS, would you hold it against him?