Is Democracy

[panamaican]

Democracy works fine. Your complaint is more about how the will of the people are shaped which is a separate issue.

Put another way, this is what you're really complaining about: Should rich people be allowed to influence the thoughts of poor people in a way that benefits the rich and hurts the poor?

 

[jonharrison]

No you could not argue that Labor is failing the marketplace to win the hearts and minds of voter class. The economic royalists own the means of production. They own newpapers. They own the media. They own the courts in as far purchasing lawyers like the tobacco lawyers who won case after case after case showing that cigarettes were safe products for everyone including kids. There is no equipoise btn the People / Labor and the Economic Royalists.

Democracy is a reflection of the People. Except the People have been supplanted by the tiny minority of rich elites. Trump played the voters beautifully. He promised them everything, just like Hitler did, and once in office he did 180. Healthcare for all became a tax cut for the wealthy. That alone is staggering. That's how Fascism works. It's born on the Left to rope in the votes, then when elected, a right wing plutocracy is implemented at the expense of the People.

First off, is that not the entire point of labor unions? To gather the collective resources of “the People” and utilize them towards political objectives? Seems to me that it’s still on labor to effectively spread their message. An example would be, for me, ALPA the airline pilots union. I am currently in the process of gaining the requisite licenses to work as a professional pilot, and have been paying close attention to this particular union over others. They have spent the past several years lobbying to have stricter standards on medicals, which would limit the number of pilots, and privatize ATC, which would also hurt general aviation. They have not supported any pro labor politicians. Seems to me that the fault is on them for not supporting a pro labor candidate, and instead focus on issues not relevant to their union.

Secondly, what are your solutions then? What would you propose be different to end the problems you see with democracy? Do you have tangible legislation you would prefer be passed? A change to the Constitution? An armed revolution against the bourgeois? How can the problems you see in democracy be fixed?

 

[drstrangelov]

You're referring to democracy in a vacuum conceptually. In that view, democracy is always pure. In practice, we don't have that here.

Efficiency gains? Like lean six sigma? Please. Trump is not a friend to Labor. The people follow Trump. I'm not following you. What the heck are you getting at?

No, efficiency in communication, data capture and transfer, basically anything that required revision to print and transport as hard copy 20 years ago can be accomplished in a fraction of the time it took before high speed internet was the norm. Also, removal on human interaction wait times for basic activity means that your timelines for accomplishing anything have shrunk. It allows for greater output per person, but salaries haven't risen commensurately.

I never said trump was a friend to labor, only that he illustrated the depth of popular cynicism with the government. A candidate with a strong liberal bent could use the same strategy effectively, and in doing so get popular approval for platform that doesn't protect big business, if he's charismatic enough and appeals to non traditional voting blocks while holding a party nomination.

 

[luckyshot]

It's an interesting question.

Crazy times we are living in, for sure. Some quick thoughts:

> Trump being elected shows that truly anyone can get elected. He was NOT the choice of either party's ruling elite, so in that sense, democracy is alive and well.

> Trump getting elected shows that the electorate WILL vote for just about anyone, not matter how morally repugnant, explicitly corrupt or obviously incompetent. So, in that sense, democracy is in trouble.

> Trump getting elected shows how repugnant and corrupt the average person believes the establishment politician to be. So it is not like we can simply fix our problems simply by getting more cynical.

> Capitalism as a global system has produced a dramatic rise in global life expectancy, literacy and material wealth. This is shared by everyone. So, it's not all doom and gloom for the proletariat these days.

> Human society is always a hierarchy with the folks at the top getting the best deal. There is no "utopia" and when people try to create one, they typically create hell on earth.

> Labor as an entity has legitimately lost value in the last 40 years. With globalization and automation, we just NEED vastly less work from the average person to make the things and stuff we need to survive.

> Yes, working class voters, right-wingers in particular, often do vote against their own economic self-interest.

> Yes, I think we should have higher taxes on the wealthy and some guarantees (ie. universal healthcare) for the working class.

> Life isn't just about economics. There is more than one way rational self-interest can be construed (and voted).

There's a lot going on. Resist banging your head against the wall because not everyone is going to see it your way-- or even in your terms.

 

[SomebodyElse]

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Get back to work slave. Enough lollygagging at anything but your grind.

Mad Commie is mad.

 

[Iceberg Slim]

It's pretty much the same as it's always been. Its our perspective that changes.
Not only does the ruling class know how to control a democracy, they've been doing it for centuries. They knew how to do it long before our version was ever even established.

 

[Bloodworth]

The strongest nation is a republic and one nation under God

 

[bobgeese]

Broken?

With the ‘success’ of the American right wing in modern American History, perhaps we should review some aspects of this plight to explain why average Americans sell their souls and own well-being for the profit of the country’s Economic Royalists.

Solidarity among labor, (lower and middle economic classes) is considered a sham and filthy concept by these people that need it most. It is accepted ‘truth’ that labor unions are no longer necessary bc, for some unspoken reason, bargaining is dead and laborers should gratefully accept what crumbs their owners toss them irrespective of the fact the Labor creates all value and the Capitalist owners are parasites of that labor. After all, you can get another job bc that’s the free market or something.

Work for many is 48 hours / week, 50 weeks / year, year after year for less compensation and no benefits. Working vacations, working weekends, and no overtime because we are all salaried. Husbands and wives and kids working to make ends meet. Where do I sign up? The plantation has been replaced by at-will employment. And they are coming for your Social Security…to help you.

“Take it a step farther and ask how wealth is created. Our wealth is a gift from nature and from the labor of all who came before us. Smith, Ricardo, and Marx expressed this belief in their labor theories of value. These labor theories undermine the legitimacy of private ownership of wealth. They make private ownership a taking from the common inheritance of humanity, a privatization of the commons.

We can’t have such dangerous ideas, however abstractly expressed, entering in the consciousness of people.

So, labor theories came to be replaced by utility theories, which focus on the individual” the rational utility maximizer- util- a generic man acting in only his own interest,” individual choice, individual freedom, and a democratic market place where the individual votes with her dollar.

“The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas.””

“As Jimmy Carter recently explained, the U.S. is no longer a democracy – it is a plutocracy. Let us not confuse plutocracy with meritocracy – our plutocrats are not philosopher kings, they are mostly control frauds, skilled in deception and connivance. That they shroud themselves in the flag, and constantly spew nationalistic rhetoric, while effectively undermining democratic rule should be seen for what it is – another manifestation of their skillful connivance. And sadly, there is pretty strong evidence that this connivance works well on angry citizens who seek an enemy on whom to express their anger…”

The above quotes were authored three years prior to the ‘election’ of President Trump. Suggestion: read Thorstein Veblen and stop voting against your own best interests.

Well, when you come up with that magic system that ensures everyone is rich and successful, with no regard to their intelligence or work ethic, let us know...