Iron Mike Tyson admits he would not have been prepared for Royce Gracie in 1993

[MikeMcMann]

I would posit that you are vastly overestimating the value of athleticism. Especially in focusing on athleticism from sports that aren't as beneficial to MMA as other sports.

in athletics, yes athleticism is key.

So many MMA fans wrongly think that athleticism is not as important to fighting. They cite Forrest Griffin type grit and toughness as more key. That is stupid as Anderson showed everyone.

Yes while the sport is young and is attracting few top elite athletes the 'tough gritty guys' can still win and compete.

But if MMA ever got the type of adoption that Football had with the most athletic kids streaming from grade school and choosing a path to MMA even as they had other choices, then the days of the guys just being tough and gritty and at the top would be far and few between.

People on this site seem to not understand that to make it to the top of the elite sports those guys have to be extremely tough and gritty. They face far more challenge and adversity to get to the top than a top MMA'ist does simply because their pool is bigger and better.

That does not mean every A level ahtlete cuts it in fighting as some will not like to be punched. but it means if you take 100 A level athletes and stream them towards MMA and 100 average gritty joe's who cold not cut it in any other sport and you train them equally the A level athletes will dominate the sport. Why? Because it is a sport and having equal training but being better everywhere athletically matters.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Royce has shown that he can close the distance an get the takedown against a variety of different size and types of fighters. Mike Tyson has never sown that he can prevent guys from taking him down. He got clinched plenty in even just boxing. Royce possesses more skill in getting the fight to the ground than Mike does in keeping the fight standing. That's undeniable.

Mike, it seems as though you really do think that Mike Tyson IS such a unique specimen that nothing in the history of MMA applies to him.

If that's the case, so be it. There's nothing more I can say other than I disagree that he's that unique.

So what?

I have never seen if a top elite pro soccer player in his prime could come over to MMA , cross train and compete in the sport but unlike you I won't cite that as evidence that they couldn't. We've seen enough guys like Costco tire changers able to jump in and cross change and reach pretty high levels of success real quick to doubt that.

You are using logical fallacy over and over in your posts. Yes no top pro boxer in his prime has been interested in MMA. NO you cannot then say since you have never seen them do anything that is evidence they could not do anything.

 

[MikeMcMann]

You said there haven't been any boxers of Mike's level in MMA. I said there have, just not in their primes. That's not dumb. It's true.

And all of this ignores that boxing isn't the only striking style, and it's not the only striking style that has been tried in MMA.

No its a lie. An attempt to deceive.

You know very well we are talking about prime Mike Tyson and that is what my statement refers to.

James Toney fighting tomorrow in an MMA fight SHOULD NEVER be used as proof that Prime Mike Tyson could do not better. You do not even believe that is proof (and if you say you do I will create a thread and poll and we can ask everyone) but are trying to use it as spin and to lie since you know your argument false flat without that.

 

[sdss]

I'm not going to get into another argument over whether a great soccer player could be successful in MMA with no MMA training. Not even if Ronaldo gives an interview saying he would've been uprepared to fight Royce Gracie in 1993.

 

[MikeMcMann]

^to add to the above if a Prime HW Boxer today was to fight with Joyce's grand father today in a cage match and knock him out, would you accept that as proof that the boxer can compete because when the grandpa Gracie was younger and in his prime he was a force in BJJ?

I know you would never use or suggest such a thing but you are trying to do so in boxing.

 

[MikeMcMann]

I'm not going to get into another argument over whether a great soccer player could be successful in MMA with no MMA training. Not even if Ronaldo gives an interview saying he would've been uprepared to fight Royce Gracie in 1993.

i never said if he did not cross train in MMA.

The example was assuming 1 or even 1000 top skilled prime athletic soccer players entering MMA and what impact such top elite athletic guys would have. Anyone with a brain would know the athleticism would matter.

 

[sdss]

Athleticism matters in MMA. It matters much less than MMA training.

There have been NFL-calibre athletes in MMA, high level wrestlers, high level kickboxers, high level grapplers, high level judoka, etc. I don't think none of this counts because you say there has never been a boxer as good as Mike Tyson.

And again, athleticism was not the deciding factor in 1993. Grappling was.

 

[Timurd123]

One punch lands clean and Royce would have been taken out on a stretcher.

If not bodybag

Royce had shit takedowns, and was weaker than a twig

Mike would’ve went after him and destroyed him in 10 seconds max

How would he use his BJJ ? Pull guard ? Haha

 

[ticho123]

But a stocky build and athleticism has never been shown to reliably stop takedowns when you have no grappling experience. Royce's takedowns were not particularly good today in hindsight, but in the early days of MMA they were good enough to win him nearly every fight he had. Royce showed he could deal with more athletic guys, bigger guys, faster guys, stock guys, and good grapplers. Mike Tyson has never shown he can deal with someone taking him down and submitting him. Because he's never had to, and is thus unprepared to. Which is what he said, and what started this thread.

Mate, Royce struggled to get Kimo down and stood in the clinch with him for a long time. I don't know about Kimo's grappling experience coming into the fight, but he certainly looked amateur and mainly got by with his size and strength advantage. Imagine if that wasn't Kimo but rather someone with the ability to throw short, powerful hooks with great technique and accuracy. Any way you slice it Royce vs Tyson is a bad night for the Gracie.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Athleticism matters in MMA. It matters much less than MMA training.

False statement. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Athleticism matters in all elements of MMA including training.

The greater the athlete the greater the training uptake.

There have been NFL-calibre athletes in MMA,

Same false argument you are trying to make re boxers. Just because someone was once in the NFL and is now past their prime and can no longer play in the NFL does not give you the right to assume and suggest they would represent what current top, and elite NFLers would look like in the sport.

I have to think you are now doing this purposely to troll since you know your argument has no merit.

high level wrestlers,

yes. One of the first big groups to flock into MMA and in large numbers.

high level kickboxers,

Yes some have moved over. Not a lot like the wrestlers. But some. And with a comparably small number we have seen a disproportionately high level of success.

high level grapplers,

Yup. BJJ, Sambo, etc.in really good numbers.

high level judoka, etc. I don't think none of this counts because you say there has never been a boxer as good as Mike Tyson

No the reason none of this works is that all of these arts had top athletes enter MMA while still in their prime. that is a difference you seem to not think matters thus why you keep trying to equate James Toney when he fought in MMA to Prime Mike Tyson.



.

And again, athleticism was not the deciding factor in 1993. Grappling was.

Trolling. You are definitely trolling.

 

[sdss]

Mate, Royce struggled to get Kimo down and stood in the clinch with him for a long time. I don't know about Kimo's grappling experience coming into the fight, but he certainly looked amateur and mainly got by with his size and strength advantage. Imagine if that wasn't Kimo but rather someone with the ability to throw short, powerful hooks with great technique and accuracy. Any way you slice it Royce vs Tyson is a bad night for the Gracie.

Kimo actually had a wrestling background. He was a good high school wrestler on a state championship team, so that's more than Tyson brings in terms of grappling. And he's a way bigger guy than Tyson and a D1-football-level athlete. All of that could have been deciding factors if he had more grappling and submission experience, but as as it was, all he could do was delay the eventual submission.

 

[sdss]

Trolling. You are definitely trolling.

Okay.

It's clear we disagree on too much to find any common ground here.

 

[sdss]

My argument is Mike Tyson's argument. He wasn't prepared for a mixed rules fight because he had never prepared for one.

 

[sdss]

For fun, I went back and reread the original quote from Mike. Of a potential fight with Royce, he said, "there’s no way I could have won that fight."

It occurs to me now that anyone disagreeing with Mike himself probably isn't going to swayed by anything I, or anyone else, says on the matter.

 

[the ambush]

People want to factor in height and weight and forget all about Royce defeating Dan Severn and Kimo Leopoldo. You’re talking about two Heavyweights who walked around at 240+ lbs, physically larger frames than Mike had.

They only called him Beast

 

[ticho123]

Kimo actually had a wrestling background. He was a good high school wrestler on a state championship team, so that's more than Tyson brings in terms of grappling. And he's a way bigger guy than Tyson and a D1-football-level athlete. All of that could have been deciding factors if he had more grappling and submission experience, but as as it was, all he could do was delay the eventual submission.

As I said I don't know about Kimo's background, but he looked objectively clueless technically while clinching with a much smaller man, giving up double underhooks etc. And Tyson would obviously have a much higher chance of landing something as Royce was pushing in due to being much quicker than Kimo and possessing a jab among other punches as well as having better timing and distance.

 

[Superior]

Tyson would still have fucked him until Royce loved him.

 

[sdss]

As I said I don't know about Kimo's background, but he looked objectively clueless technically while clinching with a much smaller man, giving up double underhooks etc. And Tyson would obviously have a much higher chance of landing something as Royce was pushing in due to being much quicker than Kimo and possessing a jab among other punches as well as having better timing and distance.

Now that you know Kimo's background tho, you should acknowledge that it was a factor. He knew how to wrestle. I don't think he looked clueless at all. He was even able to block the initial takedown because he knew how to sprawl. Tyson wouldn't have that knowledge, as he admits.

 

[Superior]

People want to factor in height and weight and forget all about Royce defeating Dan Severn and Kimo Leopoldo. You’re talking about two Heavyweights who walked around at 240+ lbs, physically larger frames than Mike had.

They only called him Beast

Speed kills bro.

 

[ticho123]

Now that you know Kimo's background tho, you should acknowledge that it was a factor. He knew how to wrestle. I don't think he looked clueless at all. He was even able to block the initial takedown because he knew how to sprawl. Tyson wouldn't have that knowledge, as he admits.

Sprawling is almost an instinctive move for some people. And you havent adressed the fact that its much harder to shoot on a skilled boxer than on Kimo and that they, contrary to what you claimed, obviously have a way higher chance of landing shots on the way in due to their strikes being quicker and more technical. You also havent adressed the power of Tyson - if he can keep the clinch for even a few seconds and land a couple of hooks to the body it could do great damage to the much lighter Royce.