intermitant fasting

[anaconda]

Anyone doing 14 or 15 hour fasts. Some people have told me if its not 16 hr min it does nothing but I have seen other people saying 14 hr is good especially for beginners

I'm pretty sure many of the beneficial effects take place around 16 hours.

 

[bjjaz]

Anyone doing 14 or 15 hour fasts. Some people have told me if its not 16 hr min it does nothing but I have seen other people saying 14 hr is good especially for beginners

I'm pretty sure many of the beneficial effects take place around 16 hours.

Shoot for 18-20 though, and if you end up eating a little early its fine. It is actually easier than you think to get used to doing. Plus shoot for the stars and maybe hit the moon ya know.

 

[anaconda]

Reliance on free fatty acids for energy reduces blood flow, and the peripheries are the first to suffer. That's why IF has been shown to increase mitochondrial density, because the cells adapt to become more efficient with less oxygen. But it gets to a point where you've reduced your reliance on glycolitic metabolism so much that blood flow gets so low that the cells can't adapt any further, and you get cold. When that starts happening, the cells undergo too much stress and bad things happen (peripheral insulin resistance, mild inflammatory response, you just feel like shit, etc.).

Strange that you say its a bad thing.

I get very frequently have cold extremities when fasting. Martin Berkhan mentioned somewhere that it is just a sign of fasting and perfectly normal. Why do you say its bad? I mean I read what you wrote but at what point do you determine it has gone too far?

 

[anaconda]

Shoot for 18-20 though, and if you end up eating a little early its fine. It is actually easier than you think to get used to doing. Plus shoot for the stars and maybe hit the moon ya know.

You're right. What I meant was most of the beneficial effects *start* to take effect around 16 hours. I believe they peak around 24-26 hours but I can't remember exactly.

 

[JRT6]

The Leangains guy fasts as a way of life and while I don't see the defined benefit of me doing that his recent article on how breakfast just makes you as hungry as hell is really true for me. So while I'm not 16 hour fasting religiously anymore I'm definitely avoiding eating the first thing after I get out of bed.

 

[hardheart]

The Leangains guy fasts as a way of life and while I don't see the defined benefit of me doing that his recent article on how breakfast just makes you as hungry as hell is really true for me. So while I'm not 16 hour fasting religiously anymore I'm definitely avoiding eating the first thing after I get out of bed.

I do the exact opposite. It's FOOOD NOW or I'm a grumpy fuck all day.

 

[theriver]

love it so far, it's been exactly a week. love the practicality of the meal prep, the enjoyment of eating again, the high I'm on most of the day... workouts and sleep have been amazing so far. trying a 24 hour fast from sat to sun, see how it goes.....

 

[Seriously-Dead]

Strange that you say its a bad thing.

I get very frequently have cold extremities when fasting. Martin Berkhan mentioned somewhere that it is just a sign of fasting and perfectly normal. Why do you say its bad? I mean I read what you wrote but at what point do you determine it has gone too far?

Why do you think being unnaturally cold would be a good thing? It's discomforting and stressful, and it's a sign of poor peripheral blood flow and low cellular energy. Ever notice how super healthy little kids are like tiny furnaces? It's because their blood flow and cellular metabolism are at peak levels, and these functions degrade over time. If you're fasting and inducing these symptoms, you need to stop fasting so much and get some more glucose in your system.

 

[IronMaidenfan#1]

Every so often we have an epic thread that is a joy to read and this is the latest.
I posted quite early on in this thread and here we are at page 60. I'm sure we'll reach 100!

Seriously-Dead, take a bow! - awesome posting and awesome information, thank you for sharing. If only we can get MikeMartial, Sinister and TX911 (hard because he's banned!) to join in!

Seriously, good discussion guys. Keep it up!

 

[flanellograf]

Why do you think being unnaturally cold would be a good thing? It's discomforting and stressful, and it's a sign of poor peripheral blood flow and low cellular energy. Ever notice how super healthy little kids are like tiny furnaces? It's because their blood flow and cellular metabolism are at peak levels, and these functions degrade over time. If you're fasting and inducing these symptoms, you need to stop fasting so much and get some more glucose in your system.

Hold the broscience for a second and consider the fact that low levels of stress could actually be good for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

 

[IronMaidenfan#1]

^^^^^^
You don't help yourself by starting off with an unwarranted condescending remark.
Plus I think you are not understanding what he has typed in it's context. If you have something useful to say then go about it in a respectful and productive way like asking the the guy to explain why he has a different opinion to you or perhaps even asking him to explain his position in more detail - instead of shouting, 'broscience' like a douchebag and then offering a wiki page, doesn't exactly prove that you understand what you are talking about - my suspicion is you don't.

 

[anaconda]

Why do you think being unnaturally cold would be a good thing? It's discomforting and stressful, and it's a sign of poor peripheral blood flow and low cellular energy. Ever notice how super healthy little kids are like tiny furnaces? It's because their blood flow and cellular metabolism are at peak levels, and these functions degrade over time. If you're fasting and inducing these symptoms, you need to stop fasting so much and get some more glucose in your system.

This is what I was referring to:

Fasting and cold fingers

"Q: Sometimes when I fast my finger tips get cold, why is that?

Fasting increases the blood flow to you body fat (the process is called adipose tissue blood flow). So when you are fasting more blood is travelling to your body fat, presumably to help move it to your muscles where it can be burned as a fuel. Do to this increased travel to your body fat, micro-vasodilation occurs in your fingertips and sometimes toes to compensate. So in some cases it’s a ‘necessary evil’ in the fat loss process."

I've heard people mention cold fingers, hands and feet after longer fasting periods so the above is a good addition to the FAQ at the end of the book

I wouldn't say I'm unnaturally cold, just that my hands get a little colder than normal.

Point taken though. I'll keep it in mind. Now that I've gotten pretty close to my goal weight I'll prob do mostly 16-18 hour fasts anyway. I've taken the past week off fasting and I've felt pretty good so I think its time for a more balanced approach with occasional 24 hour fasts.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

Hold the broscience for a second and consider the fact that low levels of stress could actually be good for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis

Consider the fact that everyone here trains and regularly puts their body under physical stress. Then consider the fact that many people here also are under considerable amounts of mental stress, which induces the same physical stress response on the body. Like most things, the risks of stress exposure fall on a U-shaped curve. Sometimes you need to add to it, sometimes you don't. Case in point, the most recent meta-analysis of caloric restriction in mammalian models didn't show a net-positive effect on longevity.

This is what I was referring to:

I wouldn't say I'm unnaturally cold, just that my hands get a little colder than normal.

Point taken though. I'll keep it in mind. Now that I've gotten pretty close to my goal weight I'll prob do mostly 16-18 hour fasts anyway. I've taken the past week off fasting and I've felt pretty good so I think its time for a more balanced approach with occasional 24 hour fasts.

It is very true. In order to get lean you have to bite the bullet and endure some coldness. At some point though, you have to decide when you're lean enough, and that point you need to be more careful about your fasting/fat loss regimen. What's good for weight loss isn't necessarily good long term.

Berkhan's approach works well for people at extremely low BF% levels because:
A) He doesn't exercise that much. Three times a week, tops. And he doesn't do shit loads of volume when he does work out, instead he aims for high intensity. Physical stress is overall quite low.
B) He eats tons of carbs. ~350g on workout days and then about a third of that on off days. And the timing of those carbs is ideal (post-workout, late at night, ensuring high intracellular levels of glucose, and high morning levels of glucose intolerance).
C) He doesn't fast for that long at a time.

Anyways, this is an aside, but I always wonder how healthy being extremely lean is. I know from my own blood work and a few other people I know that the markers are for the most part positive, but I can't help to think that something is missing that just might not be so great for a person in the long run. But who knows. I guess we'll find out in 60-70 years.

 

[flanellograf]

Consider the fact that everyone here trains and regularly puts their body under physical stress. Then consider the fact that many people here also are under considerable amounts of mental stress, which induces the same physical stress response on the body. Like most things, the risks of stress exposure fall on a U-shaped curve. Sometimes you need to add to it, sometimes you don't. Case in point, the most recent meta-analysis of caloric restriction in mammalian models didn't show a net-positive effect on longevity.

I know about the recent monkey-study (which I have some reservations about), but not of any meta-analysis. Link?
Also, IF != CR, and even if CR doesn't work for primates doesn't mean that other forms of hormesis don't either.
There are also different types of stressors and they most likely shouldn't be considered equal. For instance, exercise has a protective effect on the telomeres that counteracts the effects of negative mental stress.

If anything is harmful in Barkhans approach, it's the insane amount of meat/protein he eats/advocates. Not to mention that red meat is correlated with shorter life spans/cancer, recent studies also seem to indicate that the IF effect in primates, if any, likely is due to a lower intake of protein.

 

[anaconda]

Consider the fact that everyone here trains and regularly puts their body under physical stress. Then consider the fact that many people here also are under considerable amounts of mental stress, which induces the same physical stress response on the body. Like most things, the risks of stress exposure fall on a U-shaped curve. Sometimes you need to add to it, sometimes you don't. Case in point, the most recent meta-analysis of caloric restriction in mammalian models didn't show a net-positive effect on longevity.



It is very true. In order to get lean you have to bite the bullet and endure some coldness. At some point though, you have to decide when you're lean enough, and that point you need to be more careful about your fasting/fat loss regimen. What's good for weight loss isn't necessarily good long term.

Berkhan's approach works well for people at extremely low BF% levels because:
A) He doesn't exercise that much. Three times a week, tops. And he doesn't do shit loads of volume when he does work out, instead he aims for high intensity. Physical stress is overall quite low.
B) He eats tons of carbs. ~350g on workout days and then about a third of that on off days. And the timing of those carbs is ideal (post-workout, late at night, ensuring high intracellular levels of glucose, and high morning levels of glucose intolerance).
C) He doesn't fast for that long at a time.

Anyways, this is an aside, but I always wonder how healthy being extremely lean is. I know from my own blood work and a few other people I know that the markers are for the most part positive, but I can't help to think that something is missing that just might not be so great for a person in the long run. But who knows. I guess we'll find out in 60-70 years.

Well I'm not nearly lean enough to be worried about becoming too lean lol. I'm trying to get to ~10% and I'd be happy around there. Another 8-10 lbs should do it.

 

[Seriously-Dead]

I know about the recent monkey-study (which I have some reservations about), but not of any meta-analysis. Link?
Also, IF != CR, and even if CR doesn't work for primates doesn't mean that other forms of hormesis don't either.
There are also different types of stressors and they most likely shouldn't be considered equal. For instance, exercise has a protective effect on the telomeres that counteracts the effects of negative mental stress.

Link to the 41 study review: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19878144

And Guyenet's post on it and the issue of CR for longevity: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ca/2012/08/does-calorie-restriction-extend.html

I know IF and CR are not the same. Stressors really are not that different. Stress is a ubiquitous phenomena, and inflammatory disregulation looks the same between people who exercise too much, eat too little, or eat too much. It's the same across all stressor models. In yeast you can stress them via hypoxia, high glucose concentrations or low glucose concentrations and all of them still have the same U-curve mortality distribution. Same with most other animal models.

Yes, intermittent stressors are necessary, but how much, when and how intense is a complicated issue that I don't think anyone is really capable of tackling yet. But personally, if we're going back to the initial question at hand - if you are relatively lean already and getting cold limbs, etc, I think you've probably gone a little overboard on the stressor scale.

If anything is harmful in Barkhans approach, it's the insane amount of meat/protein he eats/advocates. Not to mention that red meat is correlated with shorter life spans/cancer, recent studies also seem to indicate that the IF effect in primates, if any, likely is due to a lower intake of protein.

I've actually been having similar reservations about meat intake, particularly red meat. The iron intake curve and the mortality curve are nearly identical, with very no ways for men to excrete iron (outside of blood donations/letting) and it being responsible for so much oxidative damage it makes me think there might be some reasoning behind reducing protein intake (although I think the increased intake has some advantages for overweight people). That combined with increased cortisol secretion in response to high protein feeding makes me think it's not all it's cracked up to be. Obviously this is if longevity is concerned - performance and body composition may require a different way of looking at it.

 

[flanellograf]

Fair enough.

 

[PCypert]

I've just started IF'ing this week. I'm about 5 days into it and I'm already down about 4kg...if i compare an early morning pre IF weigh in to my post workout weight in with Gi last night . I'm striving for the 20/4 split as many days as I can. Hunger isn't an issue as much, but I photograph food so being around it all day or off on a review makes it impossible to have as much control over what I'm eating.

I came to fasting through a church past though. There are some good books like Celebration of Discipline that talk about different beliefs and customs with fasting and also what to look out for/how to manage longer ones. I've personally done around 9 days and known people who do 21 days and it's really just the first 3 days that suck when you're shedding caffeine addictions and things like that. I drank a bit of vitamins during the week, but wouldn't have anything solid through the course and no water for first 24 hours. Was a nice yearly discipline when I was doing it. Not for exercise certainly, but for those who think that 24 is hard...it's really just scratching surface of what you can do. One day really isn't so bad.

 

[48mpg]

i stopped reading at, "I photograph food . . ."

wow, that sounds awesome, like actual food or like, lets make this picture look good for the poster so people will order it and then get a plate of it and say wtf?? i didnt order this.

so to contribute to IF, I've been on it ~2 months or so, i am strict with it weekdays, about a 4 hr feeding window. weekends, its closer to an 8 hr feed. doing paleo as well, on weekdays, a bit looser on weekends.

Results, I finally have a waistline. no scale, but i've lost quite a bit. Not hungry at all during the day until about 17-18 hrs into the fast, i just go do something to keep myself occupied.

after a big eating weekend, i fast for 24 on monday and eat dinner only.

not lifting at the moment because i have no gym membership yet, costs $$$ here in London.

 

[bjjaz]

i stopped reading at, "I photograph food . . ."

wow, that sounds awesome, like actual food or like, lets make this picture look good for the poster so people will order it and then get a plate of it and say wtf?? i didnt order this.

so to contribute to IF, I've been on it ~2 months or so, i am strict with it weekdays, about a 4 hr feeding window. weekends, its closer to an 8 hr feed. doing paleo as well, on weekdays, a bit looser on weekends.

Results, I finally have a waistline. no scale, but i've lost quite a bit. Not hungry at all during the day until about 17-18 hrs into the fast, i just go do something to keep myself occupied.

after a big eating weekend, i fast for 24 on monday and eat dinner only.

not lifting at the moment because i have no gym membership yet, costs $$$ here in London.

Well thats good man, you are still seeing some good results.