Interesting parallel between the collapse of the Roman Empire and contemporary Western Civilization

[JohnnySagebrush]

Precisely why I posted it, and I agree it's interesting. It's part of two chapters dedicated to the fall of Rome but it's a nice summary. I'm sure there are more learned men on the subject who frequent the forum and I'm interested to hear their thoughts. You'll find an answer to your question a few posts up.

I also love the ad hominems with you guys. Make a fuss over petty BS instead of putting thought into the topic. I guess it's partially my fault for leaving low-hanging fruit. Lord forgive my disgusting penmanship.

I haven’t been to Europe in over a decade. I’m far from reputable on that front, though you will find many Americans on this forum that have never been to Europe that are experts on the Muslim scourge that are dooming Europeans to their imminent demise. They read it on the Internet, you know.

You might be interested in “Collapse” by Jared Diamond and “The Rule of Empires” by Timothy Parsons. Not many folks have actually read The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, but if you have the time, go for it.

 

[gspieler]

There are so many interesting historical parallels that one could draw between past empires and the post-apex US empire.

Yet the only persons who ever make these comparison are historically illiterate identity politics-obsessed immigration alarmists.

Muh Goths!

So in other words...it's a valid parallel.

 

[gspieler]

Open borders feels like a straw-man, I suppose some European feminists that are craving BBC are for open-borders, but I think compassion for immigrants is falsely equated to wanting open-borders

Is the jump from the context to current Western Europe to a society with true open borders that far? Is it not the case in most EU countries, basically anyone seeking "asylum" is essentially guaranteed entry, as well as food/housing indefinitely?

 

[Willy Womack]

I haven’t been to Europe in over a decade. I’m far from reputable on that front, though you will find many Americans on this forum that have never been to Europe that are experts on the Muslim scourge that are dooming Europeans to their imminent demise. They read it on the Internet, you know.

You might be interested in “Collapse” by Jared Diamond and “The Rule of Empires” by Timothy Parsons. Not many folks have actually read The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, but if you have the time, go for it.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have Collapse and also Why Nations Fail. Good books.

 

[Bald1]

Open borders feels like a straw-man, I suppose some European feminists that are craving BBC are for open-borders, but I think compassion for immigrants is falsely equated to wanting open-borders

-There are no practical borders in the EU. See schengen area.
-Merkel invited one and all to the EU.
-Many western leaders condemned those countries which secured EU borders - as was their duty, by law, to do.
-The EU countries that refuse to take "migrant quotas" are in court with the intent to force them to take in foreign nationals.
-There are still some supporters of the kalgeri plan.
-Most newcomers to the EU are economic migrants, not refugees.
-No country is bound by any sort of international law to accept immigrants or migrants.

Those are facts.

 

[Ruprecht]

-There are no practical borders in the EU. See schengen area.
-Merkel invited one and all to the EU.
-Many western leaders condemned those countries which secured EU borders - as was their duty, by law, to do.
-The EU countries that refuse to take "migrant quotas" are in court with the intent to force them to take in foreign nationals.
-There are still some supporters of the kalgeri plan.
-Most newcomers to the EU are economic migrants, not refugees.
-No country is bound by any sort of international law to accept immigrants or migrants.

Those are facts.

"The Kalgeri Plan" is nothing like a fact. For a start, there was no "plan". You really shouldn't just take people's word for things like that.

 

[Phr3121]

Maybe not, but anyway I found this section particularly interesting-

A good analogy. I like the 'The Medieval World: An Illustrated Atlas'. The British never 'fell'. They surrendered their colonies. Americans did beat the British, but most of the British Army was fighting in Europe at the time anyway. The French did help the Americans fight the British.

 

[Bald1]

"The Kalgeri Plan" is nothing like a fact. For a start, there was no "plan". You really shouldn't just take people's word for things like that.

So what you're saying is (had to try that on for size) there are no supporters of what is known as the "kalgeri plan"? Whether it's structured or not, some people see merit in the idea. As in support it.

FWIW, I waffled whether or not I should put that point in.


Edit: sloppy post is sloppy. I realize seeing merit in something isn't the same as actively supporting it, but I'm leaving it as is.

 

[Ruprecht]

So what you're saying is (had to try that on for size) there are no supporters of what is known as the "kalgeri plan"? Whether it's structured or not, some people see merit in the idea. As in support it.

FWIW, I waffled whether or not I should put that point in.

It's a "white genocide" conspiracy theory. Usually with an anti-semitic flavour.
Coudenhove-Kalergi supported a united Europe and said that eventually the existing racial and cultural barriers would break down (not something he "planned", just what he saw as inevitable in a united state). He was half Japanese and half Austro-Hungarian himself, and a vocal critic of the Nazis.
That's why you'll find the "Kalergi Plan" mentioned in the places you will.

 

[Bald1]

It's a "white genocide" conspiracy theory. Usually with an anti-semitic flavour.
He supported a united Europe and said that eventually the existing racial and subcultural barriers would break down (not something he "planned", just what he saw as inevitable in a united state). He was half Japanese and half Austro-Hungarian himself, and a vocal critic of the Nazis.
That's why you'll find the "Kalergi Plan" mentioned in the places you will.

Not going to argue against this, but rather clarify my point, and nitpick.

Clarification - the common usage of "kalergi plan" varies from diversification of Europe, to population replacement. I'm at best luke warm to the idea, but as Brussels tries to force EU members to accept migrants against their will I say something's rotten in Denmark.

Nitpick - as someone who's lived in both Hungary and Austria I'll tell you neither of those people settle for labeling someone as "Austro - Hungarian". Usually It's one or the other. It's a historically accurate description, true, and sometimes both try to claim the same person as their own, but most Hungarians and Austrians see a definite distinction between the two nationalities. This isn't an important part of the discussion though.

 

[Ruprecht]

Not going to argue against this, but rather clarify my point, and nitpick.

Clarification - the common usage of "kalergi plan" varies from diversification of Europe, to population replacement. I'm at best luke warm to the idea, but as Brussels tries to force EU members to accept migrants against their will I say something's rotten in Denmark.

Nitpick - as someone who's lived in both Hungary and Austria I'll tell you neither of those people settle for labeling someone as "Austro - Hungarian". Usually It's one or the other. It's a historically accurate description, true, and sometimes both try to claim the same person as their own, but most Hungarians and Austrians see a definite distinction between the two nationalities. This isn't an important part of the discussion though.

Of course, like most conspiracy theories the details are nebulous and shift around a lot.
Sometimes they label Coudenhove-Kalergi a jew (he wasn't, although he married one), usually they tie it to the freemasons, sometimes they focus on his idea of a hybridisation of capitalism and communism (something which absolutely isn't happening), sometimes on his idea of a "social aristocracy" (another miss).
It's always a racial theory though.
That's why it started out with the Nazis/Neo-Nazis and filtered down through the alt-right and other far-right nationalists into the brain dead, alt-lite meme spammers.

Nitpick. His dad was an Austrian count in the Austro-Hungarian empire and his mum was from a family of wealthy Japanese merchants.

 

[Black Helicopters]

Is the jump from the context to current Western Europe to a society with true open borders that far? Is it not the case in most EU countries, basically anyone seeking "asylum" is essentially guaranteed entry, as well as food/housing indefinitely?

-There are no practical borders in the EU. See schengen area.
-Merkel invited one and all to the EU.
-Many western leaders condemned those countries which secured EU borders - as was their duty, by law, to do.
-The EU countries that refuse to take "migrant quotas" are in court with the intent to force them to take in foreign nationals.
-There are still some supporters of the kalgeri plan.
-Most newcomers to the EU are economic migrants, not refugees.
-No country is bound by any sort of international law to accept immigrants or migrants.

Those are facts.

I was speaking of individuals, I have not seen one (1) person in the War Room or any political forum seriously advocate for open borders. So saying that “people” are for open borders seems like a straw man to me. If he had said that the “EU” as an organization is for open borders, I’ll accept that, but I don’t see anyone advocating it.

It reminds me of how people use the term trickle down economics when no one has ever used that term when advocating supply side economics, it’s just a straw man created by liberals to attack people in support of tax cuts.

 

[curryjunkie]

A good analogy. I like the 'The Medieval World: An Illustrated Atlas'. The British never 'fell'. They surrendered their colonies. Americans did beat the British, but most of the British Army was fighting in Europe at the time anyway. The French did help the Americans fight the British.

now look what youve gone and done, prepare for an avalanche of bile

 

[Bald1]

Of course, like most conspiracy theories the details are nebulous and shift around a lot.
Sometimes they label Coudenhove-Kalergi a jew (he wasn't, although he married one), sometimes they focus on his idea of a hybridisation of capitalism and communism (something which absolutely isn't happening), sometimes on his idea of a "social aristocracy" (another miss).
It's always a racial theory though.
That's why it started out with the Nazis/Neo-Nazis and filtered down through the alt-right and other far-right nationalists into the brain dead, alt-lite meme spammers.

Point conceded. Well, I should have left it off my list, as the dubious nature of that particular point muddied up an otherwise decent post.

I was speaking of individuals, I have not seen one (1) person in the War Room or any political forum seriously advocate for open borders. So saying that “people” are for open borders seems like a straw man to me. If he had said that the “EU” as an organization is for open borders, I’ll accept that, but I don’t see anyone advocating it.

It reminds me of how people use the term trickle down economics when no one has ever used that term when advocating supply side economics, it’s just a straw man created by liberals to attack people in support of tax cuts.

I have yet to see one post in support of open borders here in the WR. Truth be told, I haven't even talked to a true open borders advocate in real life. Yet even Merkel, who's against multiculturalism, wanted to open up the EU borders. So where is that idea coming from? I genuinely don't know.

 

[Phr3121]

Now look what youve gone and done, prepare for an avalanche of bile.

Well, it is the history my friend. The British did get their asses whipped any way you look at it. Never forget Washington at Valley Forge in the winter of 1777 with his barefoot soldiers. Now that took some real balls and guts. Those were some tough soldiers. Outcasts of American society.

 

[-dirtywhiteboy-]

i think the open boarders topic is interesting. one of the main issues is the migrant germanics began to take prominent roles in Roman society especially in creating a germanization of the military. the parallels are very real. its an interesting topic to research. religion, migrants, and etc created the death of the western half of the roman empire.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

On a side note TS if you want striking parallels check out the Peloponesian wars. USA being Athens.

 

[Fawlty]

really?

You know what's really interesting about this thread?

If you have the pic in the OP on your screen, and then scroll up and down, his bedsheets look like they are moving. It's hypnotic. Really makes the visual of that children's book pop.

 

[Renard]

Did... did you just DEFACE your own book with a pen?

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

People always bring this up, but really the collapse of the Roman Empire was more complex than that. First, only the Western half collapsed, the Eastern half persisted for a thousand years more. And the reasons why the West collapsed are more numerous than simply "muh refugees".

The economy was in the zhitter, the borders had grown too large, the East and West had split into distinct halves so the East did not support the West as much, barbarization of the army, the unwillingness of the Romans to adopt new military tactics and strategies when the face of warfare was changing, the over-reliance on stupid zhit like walls to keep people out instead of increasing the number of soldiers,etc.

Basically everything that could have gone wrong went wrong all at the same time.