Ingemar Johansson vs Rocky Marciano what-if?

While on the subject of greatest boxers of all time...

Apparently (according to Wikipedia) Rocky Marciano considered a return to boxing in 1959, after Ingemar Johansson had won the heavyweight championship from Floyd Patterson. Had such a bout come about, who would have won and why?
Feel free to take into account Marcianos advancing age and three year absence from boxing, or not.
 
Seano

Seano

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Johanson was really nothing special. He had one good punch.

Marciano because he was better at literally everytrhing.
 
Rocky would have won.

Patterson would have beaten him at the time though. Thats why he considered his comeback when Johansson had won the belt.
 
Thread takeover.
 
Marciano didn't have a style that lent itself well to old age. If he'd come back, he might've won, but then everyone would have been saying that he was afraid of Sonny Liston. It was a no-win situation. If he came back to fight Ingo, he would have also had to fight Liston, and no way he wins that in 1960.
 
I think Rocky would've beat Ingemar, but if he had come back and done so, it probably would've been good for him to retire again right after the bout. At that point in his life/career, despite being tough as nails, Patterson (probably) and Liston (definitely) would've been too much for him.
 
I see Johansson beating a 36 year old Marciano who had not fought in 4 years. Marciano obviously wins in his prime though.
 
Ox Baker said:
Marciano didn't have a style that lent itself well to old age. If he'd come back, he might've won, but then everyone would have been saying that he was afraid of Sonny Liston. It was a no-win situation. If he came back to fight Ingo, he would have also had to fight Liston, and no way he wins that in 1960.
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No version of Marciano could have beaten Liston, not the 1952 version or any other. Liston was far too powerful and athletically superior to the Rock. Liston by ko inside of 4 rounds, more likely a tko but I wouldn't rule out a complete ko.

I like the Rock and enjoy watching tapes of his fights, but Liston would have been a bridge too far. He did the right thing for his legacy by retiring. If Tyson had retired in 1989, he would have had a similar career to the Rock but of course he carried on fighting. If the Rock had carried on and fought the likes of Liston, Williams (big cat), etc, then no way he retires undefeated.

That being said, I think Marciano would have stopped Johansson fairly easy. I also think the Rock would have been made to look a fool for a while against Patterson and maybe even suffer a knockdown, but I believe he would have worn down Patterson and knocked him out.

People need to accept in relation to Marciano, that your record isn't just an indicator of how good you are, but also how good your opponents were. Does anyone who thinks the Rock is the greatest, because of his record, really believe that he could have fought the guys that Ali did in the 60s and 70s and remain undefeated? You'd have to be high on crack to believe that.

A few predictions if I had to bet

Foreman ko2 Marciano

Liston ko4 Marciano

Ali w15 Marciano (almost a shut out)

Tyson ko2 Marciano (the Rock deserves to be ranked higher, but no way could he survive 2 rounds in a head to head with Tyson circa 1988)

JJ would have absolutely toyed with Marciano. Points win.

Dempsey v MArciano is a toss up, but I edge with the Rock

Louis v Marciano (again, Louis deserves to be ranked higher, but I can just see the Rock getting to him very late and stopping him. Say between 12- 15 rounds, with Louis well ahead on the score cards)

Lewis ko2 Marciano


Of course the above is pure conjecture, but it's how I IMAGINE the styles of each fighter coming together. Some fights I can't even imagine how they would go, like Holyfield v Marciano. I can't even imagine how the fight would go. I think Marciano was very fortunate to be fighting post Louis (yes I know he koed an OLD Louis in 8) and pre Liston.
 
I don't see how Liston could last an entire fight with Rocky. I'm not saying Rocky finish Liston, but that Liston would not be effective down the stretch. Liston would have to end it early, because Rocky's pressure would gas Liston. Rocky most likely would have gotten inside on Liston and kept the fight there. Liston wasn't as big or strong as Foreman, who is the type of guy that could keep Rocky off of him. Fear was also a big part of his game. Rocky would not have been afraid of him.

Rocky beats Ingo by decision, or late ko. Had Rocky been able to train effectively and Ingo not lost to Patterson, then the fight could have happened.

If I remember correctly, Rocky attempted a couple of weeks of training then decided it was best not to continue.
 
Hester65 said:
I don't see how Liston could last an entire fight with Rocky. I'm not saying Rocky finish Liston, but that Liston would not be effective down the stretch. Liston would have to end it early, because Rocky's pressure would gas Liston. Rocky most likely would have gotten inside on Liston and kept the fight there. Liston wasn't as big or strong as Foreman, who is the type of guy that could keep Rocky off of him. Fear was also a big part of his game. Rocky would not have been afraid of him.

Rocky beats Ingo by decision, or late ko. Had Rocky been able to train effectively and Ingo not lost to Patterson, then the fight could have happened.

If I remember correctly, Rocky attempted a couple of weeks of training then decided it was best not to continue.
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It's like I said, the fight wouldn't last long, so the issue of Liston tiring is a rather moot point. Unlike Ali, who could be elusive until the more powerful man would tire- Liston in this case, the Rock is there to be hit. And Liston would HIT him, and as game as the Rock was, he would be taken out. If the Rock had gotten inside as you say, he'd have been absolutely flattened by an uppercut similar to the one that almost decapitated Patterson. If small heavyweights like Moore and Walcott could put the Rock on the deck, then I have no reservations in saying that the more powerful Liston would be quite capable of keeping him down there.

Liston is yet another fighter whose ability is overshadowed by the losses to Ali as an aging fighter. Ali beats a prime Liston IMO, but it would be a lot tougher job.

Barring his loss to Leotis Martin as an even older man (a former sparring partner that Liston used to toy with- yes even the greats have sell by dates, no matter how good they were), Liston was only given problems by cagey/skillfull fighters, like Ali, Marshall, Foley, Machen, etc. No one came to Liston and survived (see Williams and Patterson fights for example).

Liston was more of a boxer than Foreman was, and didn't go looking for the early finish as much, hence he's not seen quite as in Foreman's league as a puncher. Foreman hit harder imo (not according to Ali though), but I don't think there's a lot in it. Foreman in his prime, whilst being a couple of inches taller than Liston, outweighed him by only a small handful of pounds (less than 10!). Liston was a monster and was incredibly muscular and powerful, especially for his era. Some of Liston's kos are incredible also. Liston was equally as strong as Foreman, but he had more of a boxing style as I said. No pushing ala Foreman-Frazier. I remember hearing Foreman say that the only man he ever met that was as strong as him, that could back him up, was an ageing Liston when they sparred together. Again, Liston would bully Marciano at 5'10" and 190lb and end it early. I have no doubt about it at all.

Same goes for Frazier. Liston would have overpowered him, and so would Tyson for that matter (though not as easily as he despatched poor Marvis:D)
 
big ugly bear said:
It's like I said, the fight wouldn't last long, so the issue of Liston tiring is a rather moot point. Unlike Ali, who could be elusive until the more powerful man would tire- Liston in this case, the Rock is there to be hit. And Liston would HIT him, and as game as the Rock was, he would be taken out. If the Rock had gotten inside as you say, he'd have been absolutely flattened by an uppercut similar to the one that almost decapitated Patterson. If small heavyweights like Moore and Walcott could put the Rock on the deck, then I have no reservations in saying that the more powerful Liston would be quite capable of keeping him down there.

Barring his loss to Leotis Martin as an even older man (a former sparring partner that Liston used to toy with- yes even the greats have sell by dates, no matter how good they were), Liston was only given problems by cagey/skillfull fighters, like Ali, Marshall, Foley, Machen, etc. No one came to Liston and survived (see Williams and Patterson fights for example).

Liston would bully Marciano at 5'10" and 190lb and end it early. I have no doubt about it at all.
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Billy Conn seriously hurt a prime Joe Louis. What's my point? Faster, quicker boxers can give heavyweights problems (a la Bert Whitehurst). Walcott and Moore were two of the craftiest boxers ever (cagey/skillfull). They landed there best counter shots, and Rocky got up to stop both of them. Rarely, if ever, was Rocky hurt by something he saw coming.

Patterson was dropped more times then both of us could count. He was being hurt by everything Liston was throwing. It's not really fair to Rock to say he would go out like some did, because Rocky never was put away.

Of course Rocky could be hurt by a clean uppercut or right hand from Liston, but Liston has to land it. Rocky was hittable so it's a real possibility that Liston could end it. I don't see it happening, though.

Rocky was a complete inside fighter. His stocky frame and short arms made him very hard to handle in close quarters. I can't see Liston bullying Marciano around because that wasn't what Liston did.

It's an interesting proposal, though. Can Rocky out muscle a larger man? Can Liston fight at a high pace and still carry his power?
 
no way rocky takes liston. liston was the better and bigger boxer plus he could hit harder than anyone rocky ever faced. i say marciano beats johansson also. johanson had no chin and rocky would apply too much pressure on him.
 
Hammer Time said:
no way rocky takes liston. liston was the better and bigger boxer plus he could hit harder than anyone rocky ever faced. i say marciano beats johansson also. johanson had no chin and rocky would apply too much pressure on him.
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Not disagreeing that Liston would win.
But did Liston hit harder than Archie Moore?
Liston's a bigger guy, granted.
 
MC Paul Barman said:
Not disagreeing that Liston would win.
But did Liston hit harder than Archie Moore?
Liston's a bigger guy, granted.
Click to expand...

Moore has the all time ko record, but I doubt very much that he hit as hard as Liston. Liston was around 212-215 when he recorded his best wins against Patterson and Williams, whilst Moore only weighed 188lb against Marciano.

Liston had exceptionally long arms for his height (great leverage to build up speed and power) and at the end of those arms were two huge balls of lead that he called hands. Liston was stronger than Moore and he was capable of throwing fast shots too (just take a look at the left hook that flattened Williams- very fast and right through the target). All that considered, I'd be 99% certain that Liston hit harder. We'd have had to ask Ali and Patterson to find out. I'm pretty sure who Patterson would have voted for :D

Liston hurt Patterson with every shot he through, where as the same couldn't be said for Moore when he fought Patterson. P4P I'd give it to Moore, but in absolute terms, definitely Liston.
 
I think the chances are greater that Liston would've won, but i'm not positive of it.

Usually when i'm most confident in an outcome, I get hit with an unpleasant surprise.
 
So many people forget how small Rocky was. The man was 185 pounds.

Could you see GSP who enters the cage at close to that, after cutting weight, dominate in the HW division. There is a reason Rocky is listed as the #10 of all great HW boxers. For a man that size that is pretty incredible.
 
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