India's Military Discussions: Indian Air Force inducts 8 new Apache attack helicopters

[ShoelessRye]

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt

Tell that to the thread starter.

 

[Arkain2K]

Come on, not even you can be this stupid.

There is not many customers for advanced military hardware, so these contracts are extremely contested, if its not Lockheed they would go for another competitor from another country.

The reason for India to go with Lockheed now is because their first attempt with Dassault didn't go too well, and the 136 jets order was reduced to 36 because the French wouldn't guarantee on their plane's performances and quality:

India Signs $8.7 Billion Deal with France’s Dassault Aviation for Rafale Fighter Jets
After four years of talks, India agrees to buy only 36 fighter jets
By Santanu Choudhury
Sept. 23, 2016

French defense minister Jean Yves le Drian, center left, and Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar, center right, shook hands after signing the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets in New Delhi, Sept. 23, 2016​

India picked Dassault to provide it with jets in January 2012, a major coup for the company which beat offerings from Eurofighter, Russia’s RAC MiG, Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and Saab AB. At the time, India was the only foreign buyer for the jet.

A final order has however taken four years of discussions with two successive governments, as the parties grappled over cost and Dassault’s refusal to guarantee the performance and quality of the planes if they were assembled as originally planned by India’s state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

In April last year, India cut the size of the order to 36 jets from 126 and removed a condition that most of them be assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics.

India urgently needs to expand its depleting fleet of combat planes as it faces an increasingly assertive China, and its longtime rival, Pakistan. The air force has been urging the government to expand its fighter jet fleet, much of which is made up of aging planes acquired during the Soviet-era.

The twin-engine Rafale—which has the capability to deliver nuclear weapons—will have features such as advanced electronically scanned array radar, midair refueling and electronic warfare equipment.

All the planes from the latest order will be manufactured in France, with the first jet scheduled for delivery in three years, the government official said.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-s...t-aviation-for-rafale-fighter-jets-1474624503

 

[Rod1]

The reason for India to go with Lockheed now is because their first attempt with Dassault didn't go too well, and the 136 jets order was reduced to 36 because the French wouldn't guarantee on their plane's performances and quality:

India Signs $8.7 Billion Deal with France’s Dassault Aviation for Rafale Fighter Jets
After four years of talks, India agrees to buy only 36 fighter jets
By Santanu Choudhury
Sept. 23, 2016

French defense minister Jean Yves le Drian, center left, and Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar, center right, shook hands after signing the deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets in New Delhi, Sept. 23, 2016​

India picked Dassault to provide it with jets in January 2012, a major coup for the company which beat offerings from Eurofighter, Russia’s RAC MiG, Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and Saab AB. At the time, India was the only foreign buyer for the jet.

A final order has however taken four years of discussions with two successive governments, as the parties grappled over cost and Dassault’s refusal to guarantee the performance and quality of the planes if they were assembled as originally planned by India’s state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

In April last year, India cut the size of the order to 36 jets from 126 and removed a condition that most of them be assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics.

India urgently needs to expand its depleting fleet of combat planes as it faces an increasingly assertive China, and its longtime rival, Pakistan. The air force has been urging the government to expand its fighter jet fleet, much of which is made up of aging planes acquired during the Soviet-era.

The twin-engine Rafale—which has the capability to deliver nuclear weapons—will have features such as advanced electronically scanned array radar, midair refueling and electronic warfare equipment.

All the planes from the latest order will be manufactured in France, with the first jet scheduled for delivery in three years, the government official said.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/india-s...t-aviation-for-rafale-fighter-jets-1474624503

And before them the Russians kinda screwed them with PAK-FA.

Indians are determined to get indigenous manufacturing and service capabilities for their aircraft. And India being that big and becoming so wealthy its probably a big juicy opportunity for defense contractors.

 

[Egelo]

And before them the Russians kinda screwed them with PAK-FA.

Indians are determined to get indigenous manufacturing and service capabilities for their aircraft. And India being that big and becoming so wealthy its probably a big juicy opportunity for defense contractors.

They have it its just decades old tech.

pakfa will be good eventually, but they should have known they would be screwed working with the ruskis.

 

[Lanx]

United States Air Force Pilot

Has to type new coordinates

Better call tech support

 

[Arkain2K]

The F-16 may be aged and being phased out in the U.S, but the servicing/upgrading market segment is extremely lucrative market, consider how many countries out there have it as the back bone of their Air Forces:

Lockheed scores $1.2 billion contract to upgrade South Korean F-16s
Nov 21, 2016
James Bach, Washington Business Journal

​

Bethesda-based Lockheed Martin Corp. (NYSE: LMT) scored a major $1.2 billion contract to upgrade South Korea’s fleet of F-16s, according to a Pentagon bulletin posted on its website Friday.

A statement released by Lockheed on Monday said that those upgrades included "an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, a modern commercial off-the-shelf (COTS)-based avionics subsystem, a large-format, high-resolution center pedestal display and a high-volume and high-speed data bus."

In a statement released by the Defense Security Cooperation Agency in July 2015announcing the State Department’s initial approval of the South Korean program said those upgrades could be for up to 134 F-16s, known as KF-16C/Ds. The work is expected to be completed by Nov. 15, 2025.

"The [Republic of Korea] Air Force is modernizing its KF-16 fleet to better support its air defense needs,” the DSCA announcement last year stated. "This upgrade allows the ROK to protect and maintain critical airspace and provide a powerful defensive and offensive capability to preserve the security of the Korean peninsula and its vital national assets.”

The DSCA statement also noted that Lockheed is teamed with Falls Church-based contractor Northrop Grumman Corp.(NYSE: NOC) on the program. Northrop builds the F-16's airborne fire control AESA radar.

The list of modernization initiatives included in the original DSCA statement is extensive. It includes potential upgrades to the mission computers, radars, the global positioning and inertial navigation systems and its weapon systems — to name a few.

http://www.bizjournals.com/washingt...d-scores-1-2-billion-contract-to-upgrade.html

 

[Arkain2K]

India Could Become Next Hub for F-16 Jets in a Blow to Pakistan
by Nc Bipindra and Iain Marlow

Lockheed Martin Corp.’s offer to shift all of its F-16 manufacturing to India comes with an added benefit for Prime Minister Narendra Modi: A strategic win against nuclear rival Pakistan.

The proposal would give India partial control along with the U.S. over which countries are able to purchase F-16 fighter jets and spare parts, according to people familiar with the situation who asked not to be identified because the information isn’t public. That may allow India to choke off key supplies to Pakistan, which has relied on F-16s as its main aerial defense for decades, if the U.S. allows it do so.

“Some components may be produced only in India," Abhay Paranjape, director of business development at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said in an interview about the company’s F-16 proposal.

Asked whether Pakistan would still be able to source F-16 jets or parts elsewhere under the arrangement, Paranjape said questions about foreign military sales policies should be referred to the U.S. government. Roger Cabiness, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Defense, in turn referred questions on the sale of F-16 spare parts to Lockheed.

The strategic element is a key selling point as Lockheed pushes to win an order that may exceed 100 fighter jets, part of Modi’s plan to spend $150 billion on the armed forces and create jobs under his “Make-in-India" policy. A deal would breathe new life into the F-16, an older model than the stealth F-35 warplane, and further boost U.S.-India defense ties at the expense of Pakistan.

India Focus

“What we are doing is putting India as the center of the supply base," Randall Howard, Lockheed Martin’s aeronautics business development director, said on Aug. 4 in New Delhi. “Today, there is no potential Pakistan sale."

India and Pakistan have been enemies ever since partition when Britain exited the region in 1947. The nuclear-armed neighbors have fought three wars over disputed territory, and have few economic ties.

U.S. relations with Pakistan have worsened in recent years. Congress in May refused to give subsidies for Pakistan to buy new F-16s, prompting it to consider buying used ones from Jordan instead. The U.S. this month withheld another $300 million in military aid to Pakistan over its failure to take action against terrorists carrying out attacks on American troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

Pakistan Looking Elsewhere

Nafees Zakaria, a spokesman for Pakistan’s foreign ministry, declined to answer questions about Lockheed Martin’s F-16 proposal, as did Nungsanglemba Ao, a spokesman for India’s defense ministry.

The company’s overtures to India will prompt Pakistan to look more to China and Russia for military hardware, according to Najam Rafique, director at Islamabad’s Institute of Strategic Studies.

“Pakistan is diversifying its options," he said.

Competition for the India jet order is fierce. Lockheed Martin’s rivals such as Boeing Co. and Saab AB are all offering to shift some production to India as part of their bids to replenish India’s aging fleet. About a third of the nation’s 650 planes are more than 40 years old and set to retire in the next decade.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ch-to-india-f-16s-jobs-and-a-blow-to-pakistan

 

[Deleted member 196663]

Hand-me-downs to third world nations once we out grow the technology.

 

[IdahoCBR]

Why is the article(and I'm assuming the TS) trying to spin this as Obama's fault? Lockheed isn't under contract to build F-16's for the US and there are other nations interested in buying the jet. Why should Lockheed (a global corporation) build F-16's in the US instead of building them where there's a market for them and save costs?

 

[dfoster]

please, no more Indian tech support. Some Sanjay guy who insists his name is 'Bob' reading from a script to our exasperated military personnel on the other end of the phone...

"how is my day? my day is fine, just tell me how to fix the damn problem.. what? you already told me that.. my day is fine, motherfucker, Bob or whatever the fuck your name is....

 

[ripskater]

As Trump vows to stop flow of jobs overseas,
the Obama administration plans to build F-16 and F/A-18 jet fighters in India
By Annie Gowen
December 5

NEW DELHI — As a new American president bent on retaining American jobs prepares to take office, the Obama administration and the U.S. defense industry are working on a deal with the Indian government to build iconic U.S. combat aircraft in India.

In recent months, Lockheed Martin and Boeing have made proposals to the Indian government to manufacture fighter jets — the F-16 Fighting Falcon and the F/A-18 Super Hornet — in India as the country seeks to modernize its rapidly aging fleet of largely Russian-built airplanes.

In both cases, the aviation companies would be building production facilities in India; Lockheed Martin proposes to move its entire F-16 assembly line from Texas to India, making India the sole producer of the single-engine combat aircraft.

The U.S. military is phasing out the F-16 for its own use, but other countries remain as likely customers.

The proposals have the strong backing of the Obama administration, which has sought a closer connection with the Indian military in recent years. Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James said she was “optimistic” about the prospect of a deal after a visit to New Delhi in August, and Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter is set to return to India this week, with procurement high atop the list of discussion topics.

But the election of a billionaire businessman focused on keeping jobs at home, rather than creating them overseas, has brought a measure of uncertainty to the talks.

“What will be the U.S. policy posture now that the new president-elect is in the mix?” said one high-level official at an American defense firm in India, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal negotiations. “Is he going to continue the policy of engaging in India on co-
production and co-development? All of those are unknown at this point.”

On Thursday, President-elect Donald Trump appeared at a Carrier plant in Indiana, where his team had brokered a deal to save about 1,000 jobs, and on Sunday he let fire a series of tweets that implied a new tax penalty on goods produced by companies that leave the United States.

“Please be forewarned prior to making a very expensive mistake! THE UNITED STATES IS OPEN FOR BUSINESS,” he tweeted.

On the campaign trail he railed against job losses to Asia and Mexico.

“We are living through the greatest jobs theft in the world,” Trump said last month, citing American companies that have laid off workers and moved jobs to India, Singapore and Mexico. “It’s getting worse and worse and worse.”

Officials at Lockheed Martin and Boeing said that any partnership to manufacture jets in India would not result in a net loss of American jobs but would create Indian employment — about 1,000 positions in the case of Lockheed Martin.

About 300 mechanics on the Fort Worth assembly line would be moved to the F-35 assembly line at the same plant. Others would be given an opportunity to apply for other jobs on the newer F-35, Lockheed officials said, although they concede that some positions would be lost in the move because of attrition or retirements.

“I see this as a great opportunity for all parties involved,” said Randy Howard, director of business development for Lockheed’s integrated fighter group. “It doesn’t take jobs away from the U.S., it extends existing jobs, and not just for Fort Worth but for many other companies around the U.S. that build parts for the F-16.”

Nevertheless, workers in Fort Worth say they are worried about the future.

“Wouldn’t you be?” said Earnest Boone, president of the District Lodge 776, International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, which represents Lockheed employees.

In October, the Indian government sent a letter to foreign missions and aerospace manufacturers inquiring about single-engine fighter aircraft that could be manufactured locally.

India wants to co-produce the fighter jets as part of its Make in India program, which has the lofty goal of expanding the manufacturing base to 25 percent of the gross domestic product in the next six years.

Nitin Wakankar, a spokesman for India’s Ministry of Defense, said that the process of selecting the new jet “has not started yet,” so answering detailed questions would be premature.

India’s costly earlier effort to partner with the French company Dassault Aviation for 126 jets unraveled, and the government ended up buying only 36 ready-made Rafale planes this year.

Analysts say Lockheed’s main rival in the single-engine sphere is Sweden’s Saab Group and its Gripen fighter. Chicago-based Boeing also has proposed to make its twin engine F/A-18 in India. Boeing recently took a group of Indian defense journalists on a whirlwind tour of Australia and the United States to show off its program.

The U.S. Air Force is phasing out the F-16 in favor of the F-35 aircraft in coming years and the company has no orders for the F-16 beyond October 2017, but it is seeking other customers and does not plan to dismantle the assembly line just yet.

The F-16 airplane remains one of the most widely used aircraft in the world, and Lockheed is continuing to negotiate deals to sell the fighter to other countries. Those F-16s would be made in India under the deal once the new assembly line was up and running, Howard said. The aircraft has been made in joint ventures with other nations before, but “we’ve never offered our only production line to another country,” Howard said. “It’s unprecedented.”

Lockheed has promised that India would not only manufacture and export its jets, but it also would play a “critical role” in supporting a fleet of about 3,200 F-16s in operation around the world, said Jon Grevatt, an Asia Pacific defense industry analyst with IHS Jane’s, a defense analysis firm. “That’s a big carrot,” he noted.

A potential stumbling block to the deal is the willingness of the U.S. government to part with enough of its mission system technology to make the package palatable to the Indians. The aircraft is viewed negatively by some in the defense establishment here as a dated platform that first rolled off the assembly line in 1978 — despite its current state-of-the-art avionics. Another strike against it, for some, is that it is the fighter aircraft used by archrival Pakistan.

“The F-16 is a good aircraft, it has lived its life, but its time is over,” said Muthumanickam Matheswaran, a retired Indian air force air marshal and analyst.

A greater concern, said Pushan Das, a fellow at the Observer Research Foundation in Delhi, is whether “India wants to be seen as close to the United States and building U.S. fighter aircraft, or does it want to be more politically neutral and choose a partner like Sweden, given the fact that New Delhi needs to manage its relationship with Russia and China. That’s the main thing.”

India’s defense procurement typically moves at a glacial pace. Ashley J. Tellis, a scholar for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, wrote in a March paper that the Indian air force is in “crisis” and that its troubled acquisition and development programs threaten its air superiority over rapidly modernizing rivals Pakistan and China. The country hopes to expand its fleet from 36.5 squadrons to as many as 45 squadrons by 2027 — an unlikely prospect, the study found, because of budget constraints, slow procurement and other limitations.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1749443c5e5_story.html?utm_term=.25f47e804e3d[/QUOTE]
Can Hussein Obama get any more unAmerican than he already is?

 

[ShinkanPo]

Hmmnnn If this are for export eyond India. I wonder how much the cost of the unit be reduced.


When India started Manufacturing British Guitar amplifier brands I was able to buy two of them because of the reduce cost.



Well it is still a fighter jet with sophisticated technology.
India can't just deside to use bad electronics and forced labor. It is not a car stereo...

 

[ShinkanPo]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1749443c5e5_story.html?utm_term=.25f47e804e3d

Can Hussein Obama get any more unAmerican than he already is?[/QUOTE]


You should be aware that Barrack is a more terrorist sounding name than Hussein.

Just use Barrack Hussein.....

 

[ShinkanPo]

As far as I know, the outsourcing of an entire production/support line of an active American jet fighters is unprecedented. There are certainly oppositions to this deal, especially when the updated avionics that goes into the latest F-16 and F/A-18 are top-of-the-line.

India is far from being a close ally to the United States (certainly not the way that, say, Britain and Japan are), and even though I personally think the chance of India turning against the United States is low, Defense equipment is the one category that I do not like being outsourced, especially to non-allies.

They're really benefitting from geopolitics though, since we look at them as the natural counterweight to China. Our government even shared Aircraft Carrier technology to help their crappy homemade boat gain a semblance of functionality:

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...rrier-not-enough-to-fight-china-seas-4404232/



Islamabad must be sweating bullets right now, as the Pakistan Air Force is basically consists of the F-16's.

If this deal actually go through, the silver lining is that we can sit back and wait for the inevitable lulz from the leaked phone call between the Pakistanis Armed Forces and the F-16 tech support center in Mumbai.

That will be halarious and can you immagine the Pakistani will be forced to buy weapons built in India?


The Indians will bug that shit...

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Hmmmmm not sure what to think about this. I'm not very knowledgable on the topic of military technology. The F-16 is outdated right? If so, do we have anything on the horizon that is better and badder than it?

 

[Prutfis]

Well shit there go those planes. India is NEVER cheaper in the end.

 

[surgeyou1]

So if India goes rogue the USAF would be fucked? thats not really wise.

Goes Rogue? Lol what does that mean? India is one of the biggest and strongest democratic allies of the US.

 

[Rod1]

Goes Rogue? Lol what does that meanM

India gets pissed at America and cuts it from vital supplies.

 

[surgeyou1]

India gets pissed at America and cuts it from vital supplies.

That's a very irrational and unsupported fear.

 

[Rod1]

That's a very irrational and unsupported fear.

Just like a large scale war with Russia and China, never say never.