In an era of boring ass points matches

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Dirty Holt, Sep 9, 2017.

  1. Dirty Holt Brown Belt

    Dirty Holt
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    Najmi and Hinger, these guys legitimately go for the kill. Compared to the finals I saw at DC open and this years mundials, these guys actually give something to watch.
     
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  2. Calibur Jiu Jitsu Snob

    Calibur
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    Which matches caught your eye?
     
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  3. Dirty Holt Brown Belt

    Dirty Holt
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    Yesterdays tournament ACBJJ grand prix
    Najmi Darces Abreu in 25 seconds
    Najmi RNC Davi Ramos in a minute
    Najmi goes balls out agains Claudio (who beat Calasans) and Claudio runs the whole match

    Hinger Hingertines Bahiense in 28 seconds
    Hinger Hingertines Marques in 35 seconds
    Hinger Gogoplatas my teammate Arnaldo Maidana who is an absolute fucking hammer. Multiple time world/pan medalist

    Watching the Grippo vs Taylor finals of DC Open, its not even BJJ. It would be like watching an NBA game where the Lakers just pass the ball around the perimeter for an entire half.
     
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  4. ArtemV Silver Belt

    ArtemV
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    There are only two things more boring than this.. judo matches that get decided by a shido (penalty/yellow card) and the non aggressive greco matches at this year's worlds.
     
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  5. EGDM Blue Belt

    EGDM
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    I'm doing a woodworking project in my garage. I literally just turned off Grippo/Taylor to go watch paint dry.
     
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  6. Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

    Kenny from MD
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    Agree whole heartedly about Hinger and Najmi, I never miss their matches. I love that Najmi has no game type and can fight from everywhere. Add Tanner Rice to the list as well.

    I'd be hesitant however to decree what is and isn't jiu jitsu or go off the rails disrespecting two athletes at the top of their division because one doesn't like their match or style.
     
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  7. Dirty Holt Brown Belt

    Dirty Holt
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    This was almost every match. I represented USA many times overseas, spent a good portion of my life wrestling greco at the highest level. I watch at least 30 minutes of wrestling a day, for the last 10 years. I could not watch greco this year. It was a complete waste of time. You had a guy win the world championships without scoring a single point in the quarters, semis, and finals. Terrible. And those matches? Still more exciting than the DC Open finals.
     
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  8. ArtemV Silver Belt

    ArtemV
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    I have never wrestled in Greco; just freestyle, so I have no idea about possible rule changes in order to encourage aggressiveness. I did like a few matches, I enjoyed watching Aleksanyan and the other Armenian who got gold. But a lot of these matches had such low scores (due to non aggressiveness), that one legit 2 or 4 point score would automatically take the lead. IIRC, the Greco at last year's Olympics was quite fun to watch. But this year.. ugh; I am sure that the cadet and junior worlds greco matches were more impressive than the seniors.
     
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  9. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
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  10. mataleaos Green Belt

    mataleaos
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    You mean Najmi goes balls out against Marcio Andre? Marcio beat Caporal, not Calasans, right? Calasans lost to Patrick Gaudio.

    Either way Calasans is an interesting case. For a few years I thought he was always involved in exciting matches. Great Judo throws and wrestling. Awesome guard work and passing. Great guillotines, wrist locks, and kneebars. Somewhere along the way he started playing more strategically and for a while he seemed to be less successful because of it. He would try the 50/50 see saw game and end up losing by an advantage and I thought it was smarter for him to just do his best game. But hey it obviously worked out for him because he finally won Worlds and the ADCC Absolute.
     
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  11. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
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    IBJJF has one of the worst rule sets I've ever seen for encouraging dismal matches. Absolutely no stalling calls, advantages given for maybe getting close to achieving a position; this stuff basically guarantees that the way to maximize your chances of winning is to risk as little as possible. FWIW ADCC isn't much better, since they don't call stalling but they also penalize guard pulls, leading to things like Sanchez's god awful run in 2015 where he basically just stalled his way to victory.
     
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  12. Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

    Kenny from MD
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    I don't know why you think IBJJF has "absolutely no stalling calls." You can and will get called for stalling in a variety of circumstances. The problem is that more often than not it is a double penalty, and accomplishes nothing.
     
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  13. EGDM Blue Belt

    EGDM
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    With the obligatory 60 seconds of "grip fighting" before the double guard pull, 20 second timer for stalls, and no penalty with real teeth until the third strike the matches are half over by the time anyone really feels compelled to open up. Even then, for some reason people seem to rather play chicken with the double-DQ than be aggressive.
     
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  14. Uchi Mata Gold Belt

    Uchi Mata
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    They're rarely called, certainly in comparison to how quickly they're called in other grappling sports. The IBJJF refs just have a very low bar for what constitutes some sort of positive activity...you can be extremely defensive in posture, not really try anything, but as long as you change your grips every 20 seconds or so you can get away without being called. That wouldn't fly in Judo or any wrestling discipline. If you want to see what effective stalling calls look like in BJJ, AD Pro is really aggressive with them and it makes the matches much better than your typical IBJJF lower weight class finals and semis.
     
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  15. Human Bass Black Belt

    Human Bass
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    Maybe I'm being naive, but allowing sweeps would make spice up greco enough.
     
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  16. JagRoss Yellow Belt

    JagRoss
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    Yeah, they don't call defensive grips at all.

    In the Roger vs Buchecha match, Roger didn't do much for the first 5 minutes.
    He just spammed the left collar grip to stop the shot, and circled.

    Buchecha shot 3-4 times, and got in deep once or twice.
    No idea why he got a penalty as well.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  17. yetanother Purple Belt

    yetanother
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    The ref faces less pressure if he penalizes both guys.
     
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  18. Quebec Nick Blue Belt

    Quebec Nick
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    2 little solutions to point fighting and stalling

    You just stop showing the points, if it goes to a decision it's all about 2 judges who are gonna choose the winner with their own opinion, like in boxing and MMA (before it was more obvious who won the rounds). With that kind of biased and unpredictable judging guys will want to get a sub and to keep it out of their hands.

    Anyway, the position winning points is less and less significant because most of the guys aren't afraid anymore to give positions they know they're not in danger when they give it.


    The other option is to go with the Lethwei (burmese kickboxing) rules, if you don't finish, it's a draw. I know it's almost impossible to do a tournament with this rule, but it's still the ultimate goal for the sport.
     
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  19. Kenny from MD Less angry than before.

    Kenny from MD
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    I didn't say the stalling rules in jiu jitsu aren't bad. I said they aren't non existent as was implied. At the DC Open for example, a teammate got dinged for not progressing in side control, and another had his opponent called for pulling without a grip. You see the ref checking his watch frequently, it just usually leads to a double penalty, especially in the case of double guard pulls.

    Enforcing stalling better would certainly help but ultimately rules don't stop stalling because rules can be gamed no matter what they are, unless you give more power to the ref to make subjective decisions, in which case people freak out. Athletes with integrity stop stalling by not doing it.
     
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  20. ajf Orange Belt

    ajf
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    It took 13 minutes across three rounds for Hinger to Score on Oliveira. The first legit submission attempt was in the last 30 seconds of the second round. Grippo/Taylor had the first submission attempt at about minute 4, and I believe the first points scored at minute six.

    I get that some people don't like seeing people play 50/50, but there was more action in the same time period from the Grippo/Taylor fight.
     
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