If you support the Confederate flag....

[MarcoW]

I find it the same as supporting the swastika.
It shouldn't be erased from history, but why the hell would you want it anywhere in public view?

 

[Thurisaz]

...can you tell me why?

Sure. State sovereignty and opposition to an invading empire.

 

[hydrobadazz]

As an American I feel that the confederate flag is worse than displaying the ISIS flag.

The USA went to war with confederates. Displaying the flag is a threat to our nation.

 

[Kowboy Karl]

My friend supports people burning the American flag as an act of free speech

 

[MarcoW]

My friend supports people burning the American flag as an act of free speech

if you support burning the Quran, you should also support burning the stars and stripes.

Not one or the other. Tell him that.

 

[TheFirstEMP]

Nobody cared about it until Dylan Roof killed those people. This goes to show how much influence the media has.

 

[Mike]

To the people saying nobody cared, that's untrue. There have been people in SC trying to get the flag taken down for decades. Most of the rest of the country had no idea there were still confederate flags flying on government property in 2015, and were rightfully pissed off to find out.

 

[CoffeeAndBeer]

 

[ehtheist]

Meh, it's a bit like saying "Do you support Planned Parenthood?" and in doing so insinuating that you support what the founder of Planned Parent stood for.

Yep, that's her. She essentially wanted to start Planned Parenthood to help eliminate the "inferior" bloodlines she perceived - so, it was viewed as one of many tools to pursue a program of eugenics. Now, how silly would you feel insinuating that someone supporting Planned Parenthood was a racist supporting eugenics directed towards non-whites because of what Margaret Sanger said? I don't even care much for all of the rhetoric around the Confederate flag - you guys lost, get over it - but this type of line of reasoning is a clusterfuck if you don't apply is very specifically, and only to things you want to tear down. If it gets applied freely, many things you think are wonderful make you a racist by association with it.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

"But but but muh kkkulture" - some dumb hick

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

The Emancipation Proclamation was extremely unpopular in the North, and most at the time accepted it as only a temperary war measure. No one other than the most extreme outliars saw as whites and blacks as true "equals".

You are correct that most Northeners were racist. But it's bullshit to say the Emancipation Proclamation was unpopular. The Republican party, which had long stood for abolition, was pretty strong in the North.

None of them gave a fuck about freeing slaves.

1. One of the most popular soldier's songs of the war was about ending slavery, The Battle Hymn of the Republic.
2. Union soldiers directly freed at least a million black slaves during the course of the war. They were really clear about what they were doing and why. It doesn't mean they liked blacks, but they sure as hell didn't like slavery.

The truth about the war is that it as complicated, with union, states' right, abolition all figuring prominently. But most soldiers and politicians were crystal clear on how those pieces fit together. The could be no Union if slavery lived. States' rights mainly meant the right of state's to declare slavery legal. And so on. And when the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, most people knew damn well it meant the end of slavery. And it damn well did, with Lincoln easily garnering the votes necessary to amend the Constitution to prohibit slavery just over a year later.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

Meh, it's a bit like saying "Do you support Planned Parenthood?" and in doing so insinuating that you support what the founder of Planned Parent stood for.

Yep, that's her. She essentially wanted to start Planned Parenthood to help eliminate the "inferior" bloodlines she perceived - so, it was viewed as one of many tools to pursue a program of eugenics. Now, how silly would you feel insinuating that someone supporting Planned Parenthood was a racist supporting eugenics directed towards non-whites because of what Margaret Sanger said? I don't even care much for all of the rhetoric around the Confederate flag - you guys lost, get over it - but this type of line of reasoning is a clusterfuck if you don't apply is very specifically, and only to things you want to tear down. If it gets applied freely, many things you think are wonderful make you a racist by association with it.

Sanger was a bigot. She didn't seem to like human beings very much, which sorta makes sense of her life's work. but I agree that this is irrelevant to current debates on abortion.

 

[Mike]

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

This is like that bad Jeff Foxworthy bit he does, "you might be a redneck."



"If you support the confederate flag, you might be a redneck"


If you support the confederate flag you prob banged a family member.


If you support the confederate flag, you might be in a white trash biker club.

 

[klnOmega]

You are correct that most Northeners were racist. But it's bullshit to say the Emancipation Proclamation was unpopular. The Republican party, which had long stood for abolition, was pretty strong in the North.


1. One of the most popular soldier's songs of the war was about ending slavery, The Battle Hymn of the Republic.
2. Union soldiers directly freed at least a million black slaves during the course of the war. They were really clear about what they were doing and why. It doesn't mean they liked blacks, but they sure as hell didn't like slavery.

The truth about the war is that it as complicated, with union, states' right, abolition all figuring prominently. But most soldiers and politicians were crystal clear on how those pieces fit together. The could be no Union if slavery lived. States' rights mainly meant the right of state's to declare slavery legal. And so on. And when the Emancipation Proclamation was issued, most people knew damn well it meant the end of slavery. And it damn well did, with Lincoln easily garnering the votes necessary to amend the Constitution to prohibit slavery just over a year later.

You're right. My statements were too strong for a naunced topic. I'm just trying to remind people that it isn't like every confederate hated blacks, and it isn't like every northerner wanted to end slavery. There were people on both sides all over. And that while we tend to view the North as basically modern day liberals who completely tolerant and believed in equal rights for blacks, that generally was not the case. You would have been seen as a batshit insane radical to propose the vote for blacks, for example.

 

[Philo-Publius]

...can you tell me why? I can tell you why I don't...

I don't support a flag that was so explicit about promoting the inferiority of the African race, as well as one that millions of slaves died under. Not really a long and complicated point.... and yes, I'm aware I'm late to the party for this debate, I haven't been Sherdogging lately.

...and yes, I'm aware many Northerners held similar views at the time.

Simple question, Sunday morning debate.

I do not in any way utilize a confederate flag. However, I don't think that what the confederate flag represents can be summed up into being strictly a symbol of white supremacy. I think for some people it represents different things (e.g., state rights, southern history, etc.). People have a right to express themselves with it, although I wouldn't do it myself. To me personally, it represents a failed rebellion against the United States. The South lost. Why celebrate defeat?

 

[Rational Poster]

I don't support if over government buildings other then memorials.

But I would think of the courage of the men that carried it in places like this.

Pickett's Charge,

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/pickettscharge.htm

If by courage you mean incompetence. Sure, let's go with that.

 

[Bloodworth]

Haven't most flags from a lot of countries committed greater atrocities then what the Confederate flag looks like.
Do you see jews asking to ban the German flag, because it reminds them of their possible extinction.
Let me guess this is the same group that claims racism more then any other culure on the planet

 

[gigantalor]

Everyone on both sides of the war were white supremacists. The Emancipation Proclamation was extremely unpopular in the North, and most at the time accepted it as only a temperary war measure. No one other than the most extreme outliars saw as whites and blacks as true "equals".

Saying that one side was "racist" and ignoring that the other side was as well, is just dishonest. If could poll Union soldiers and ask them why they are fighting, they would say "to preserve the Union". None of them gave a fuck about freeing slaves.


And if you poll Southern soldiers, you'd get things like "Lincoln is a tyrant/States rights". Slavery was already becoming unpopular in South, not as a "blacks and whites are equals" thing, but as a "they took our jobs" thing. Only a small percentage of people could afford slaves, and that meant wealthy plantation owners could outcompete independent farmers, and it meant that field working jobs were lost to slaves.



To most in the South, the flag stands for a resistance against the federal government overstepping its bounds. I've never met a single person in my life who believed we should re-institute slavery.




Secondly, I think it is cowardly for states to take it off memorials. These states were part of the Confederacy, and they asked their sons to die in the name of the state. Now, when it is in vogue, they disgrace the people who died serving the state. I don't agree with the Iraq war, but I would find it utterly detestable for the government in the future to alter Iraq memorials because they are considered unfashionable.

Great post.

 

[oldshadow]

If by courage you mean incompetence. Sure, let's go with that.

If you mean a poor decision on the part of the leaders then yeah but the men showed unbelievable courage.