If this is all true... how would you change your workout?

[JosephDredd]

I think this all depends on the sport. There was some confusion on what the TS was talking about. He was thinking more of grappling, and I was thinking about most sports we watch like the instagram post was leading me to believe.

In many of the sports we watch like basketball there may not be athletes that want to use heavier loads to develop higher levels of tension. You might for a few things, but overall in a basketball players workout, you're gonna want to train many things explosively and you will want to utilize the stretch reflex in training.

In grappling, I think what you said fits much better than what I was thinking.

What Genghiz and I am referring to is the neuromuscular ability to generate tension in muscular exertion, which is why Oly lifters can get ridiculously strong in 1-3 reps: because they train their bodies to flex their muscles harder. It's the skill of strength, the skill of flexing harder.

This doesn't mean walking around tensing your muscles at all time, but being able to generate tremendous tension (strength) when you exert yourself.

It's easy to train this way with striking because you tense your body on every strike you throw: all you would need to do to use striking to built strength is throw as hard as you can every time you throw a punch / kick / knee / etc.

But BJJ is a different animal completely, imo. It's not like wrestling where you can maximally exert yourself constantly.

 

[corpse]

 

[Sano]

What Genghiz and I am referring to is the neuromuscular ability to generate tension in muscular exertion, which is why Oly lifters can get ridiculously strong in 1-3 reps: because they train their bodies to flex their muscles harder. It's the skill of strength, the skill of flexing harder.

This doesn't mean walking around tensing your muscles at all time, but being able to generate tremendous tension (strength) when you exert yourself.

It's easy to train this way with striking because you tense your body on every strike you throw: all you would need to do to use striking to built strength is throw as hard as you can every time you throw a punch / kick / knee / etc.

But BJJ is a different animal completely, imo. It's not like wrestling where you can maximally exert yourself constantly.

Thought about supplementing your BJJ training with some strength training (if time and recovery allows) + a wrestling practice a week?

 

[Genghiz]

I think this all depends on the sport. There was some confusion on what the TS was talking about. He was thinking more of grappling, and I was thinking about most sports we watch like the instagram post was leading me to believe.

In many of the sports we watch like basketball there may not be athletes that want to use heavier loads to develop higher levels of tension. You might for a few things, but overall in a basketball players workout, you're gonna want to train many things explosively and you will want to utilize the stretch reflex in training.

In grappling, I think what you said fits much better than what I was thinking.

You simply cannot significantly improve the physical attribute of maximal-strength (the ability to generate force) without applying high levels of tension.

Certain attributes like power, power-endurance, explosiveness are derived from your levels of maximal-strength. If you're weak and you get stronger (more maximal strength) you can potentially convert that strength into related qualities like explosiveness, power/PE, muscular-endurance etc with the right "conversion" training.

For an athlete, it might be a good practice to use sport specific drills for "conversion" training. If you're a weak power-less boxer, you might build up your strength through a traditional strength training program (bench, OHP, progressive loads) and then "convert" that max strength into power and explosiveness through bag drills, pads, sparring, plyos etc.

I get the impression you equate strength training with muscle-bound inflexible body builders. Strength is simply your ability to generate force, you can't have too much. Gymnasts are a good example of how generating tension results in massive levels of strength without compromising flexibility.

 

[ripskater]

Again you are misunderstanding things.

You simply cannot significantly improve the physical attribute of maximal-strength (the ability to generate force) without applying high levels of tension.

Certain attributes like power, power-endurance, explosiveness are derived from your levels of maximal-strength. If you're weak and you get stronger (more maximal strength) you can potentially convert that strength into related qualities like explosiveness, power/PE, muscular-endurance etc with the right "conversion" training.

For an athlete, it might be a good practice to use sport specific drills for "conversion" training. If you're a weak power-less boxer, you might build up your strength through a traditional strength training program (bench, OHP, progressive loads) and then "convert" that max strength into power and explosiveness through bag drills, pads, sparring, plyos etc.

I get the impression you equate strength training with muscle-bound inflexible body builders. Strength is simply your ability to generate force, you can't have too much. Gymnasts are a good example of how generating tension results in massive levels of strength without compromising flexibility.

I have to go. But I'll say one thing quickly and get back to you later.

Maximal strength isn't really that important in a lot of sports. More important is your explosiveness and your ability to deliver your power very quickly.

In grappling, it's true, but not as true as other sports.

 

[Genghiz]

I have to go. But I'll say one thing quickly and get back to you later.

Maximal strength isn't really that important in a lot of sports. More important is your explosiveness and your ability to deliver your power very quickly.

In grappling, it's true, but not as true as other sports.

I have to go. But I'll say one thing quickly and get back to you later.

Maximal strength isn't really that important in a lot of sports. More important is your explosiveness and your ability to deliver your power very quickly.

In grappling, it's true, but not as true as other sports.

Where do you think explosiveness comes from? Did you read my entire post?

 

[ripskater]

Where do you think explosiveness comes from? Did you read my entire post?

I just read the first part when I replied.

Now I read your whole post.

I need to be short here.

I think gymnasts are tremendous athletes. They are the epitome of strength and athleticism.

But there is only so much time and energy that a basketball, tennis, baseball or soccer player can put into their gym workouts. The main thing for them is their sport skills, precision and their explosiveness. Heavy strength training at a certain point can get in the way of some other attributes that are more important. I think some can be good. But especially in season, the heavy lifting is gonna be minimal. And it may be more important to stay mobile, loose, and explosive.

 

[Genghiz]

I just read the first part when I replied.

Now I read your whole post.

I need to be short here.

I think gymnasts are tremendous athletes. They are the epitome of strength and athleticism.

But there is only so much time and energy that a basketball, tennis, baseball or soccer player can put into their gym workouts. The main thing for them is their sport skills, precision and their explosiveness. Heavy strength training at a certain point can get in the way of some other attributes that are more important. I think some can be good. But especially in season, the heavy lifting is gonna be minimal. And it may be more important to stay mobile, loose, and explosive.

Obviously you need to prioritize and allocate an appropriate amount of max strength that matches your sport's requirements. A marathon pro doesn't need 5 days of max strength training. That's not what's being discusssed here. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what strength, explosiveness, power etc are and how they relate to each other.

 

[Genghiz]

Best way is like you said is to be 'sport specific'. If you want to be better at grappling or a stronger grappler- grapple more. Grapple, bigger, stronger guys that you can't overpower. Or like Ross Enamait says- you want to be able to punch harder? Practice throwing hard punches with everything you have.

Here's what GSP said a while back in a bloody elbow interview and I believe he's spot on:

Georges St. Pierre: "I don't believe in strength and conditioning. I never do strength and conditioning. I do not believe that running on a treadmill or doing I don't know what, so called machine. I don't believe that's going to help you have better cardio for a fight. I think everything in fighting is about efficiency."

Joe Rogan: "So you don't do strength and conditioning as far as like hitting tires with sledgehammers?"

GSP: "I never did it in my life. I remember I had a Muay Thai instructor from France, that I even brought on the reality show The Ultimate Fighter. The guy smoked, I don't know how many packs of cigarettes a day. He's always drinking alcohol. He's a real character, and he's completely out of shape, but when he spars with us in Muay Thai, he kicks everyone's ass. The reason is because he is more efficient than we are."

"In the UFC, I do believe everyone is in shape. We're all athletes, you know... but the reason I believe a guy is more tired than another guy, is because one guy is more efficient than the other. One guy is able to bring the fight to where he is strongest, and the other guy to where he is out of his comfort zone."

"The only reason it is good to lift weights, to do bench press, and stuff like that, I believe, is because it is going to make me more marketable, and to keep myself looking more symmetric, with a better image... Which is very important, because if you look good, you feel good, and if you feel good, you do good. There's nothing wrong with that you know."

Rogan: "You lift weights for looks?"

GSP: "Yeah, I lift weights for looks. Yeah, I am gonna admit it. Sometimes after I'm training, I'm gonna lift weights, but I'm not doing it because I'm gonna punch harder, or I'm gonna be stronger, because it has nothing to do with it. I'm doing it because you know, I want to to be like you know, have a good shape. I do it for myself."​

Firaz Zahabi addressed this in a video or post or something.

He basically said it was a waste of time devoting too much of GSPs training on cardio/conditioning drills because he tested with an abnormally high vo2max. So it would be smarter for GSP to allocate more of his training time to skills/sport specific training and drills. I'm guessing the same could apply to his strength. Why spend more time on strength if he already has enough to maximize his power and explosiveness.

Firaz went on to say that he does prescribe more conditioning and strength training to his other "normal" trainees, the ones that don't test above the charts for things like vo2max.

So using GSP as an example may not be the best, he's a bit of an outlier.

 

[Noodles03]

Where do you think explosiveness comes from?

Magic

Genghiz, I have a question for you if you don't mind answering. I have read that maximal power production occurs when the load is about 30% of your 1 rep max. However, caan you still developed explosiveness if the weight exceeds 30% of your one rep max? Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[JosephDredd]

Thought about supplementing your BJJ training with some strength training (if time and recovery allows) + a wrestling practice a week?

I am doing strength training. This thread is basically me wondering how I can maximize BJJ training because I know that I am not doing that.

 

[Sano]

I am doing strength training. This thread is basically me wondering how I can maximize BJJ training because I know that I am not doing that.

If you'd want someone to break down your S&C sessions outside BJJ according to that infograph up there you'd have to pay someone to do it, and even then it would be very difficult.

Let's go back to the two parts I talked about earlier.

1. What is your strong and weak points physically on the mat? What do you excell at, or what are you poor at regarding positions?

2. What are the physical requirements of the sport? - Flexibility, muscular endurance, grip strength, ?, ?

 

[Sano]

You simply cannot significantly improve the physical attribute of maximal-strength (the ability to generate force) without applying high levels of tension.

Certain attributes like power, power-endurance, explosiveness are derived from your levels of maximal-strength. If you're weak and you get stronger (more maximal strength) you can potentially convert that strength into related qualities like explosiveness, power/PE, muscular-endurance etc with the right "conversion" training.

For an athlete, it might be a good practice to use sport specific drills for "conversion" training. If you're a weak power-less boxer, you might build up your strength through a traditional strength training program (bench, OHP, progressive loads) and then "convert" that max strength into power and explosiveness through bag drills, pads, sparring, plyos etc.

I get the impression you equate strength training with muscle-bound inflexible body builders. Strength is simply your ability to generate force, you can't have too much. Gymnasts are a good example of how generating tension results in massive levels of strength without compromising flexibility.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I'm not sure that conversion always works like that. The idea that higher max strength equals more muscular endurance, even with conversion training is not always the case. The rhetoric on that is usually that if you have more strength, then lifting sub-maximal loads gets easier and you can do more reps. While that is mostly true, it's not exactly the same as you improving your muscular endurance. The lower the weight gets, the less maximal strength matters as well.

Just look at the physiology of muscle fibers. Primarily doing max strength work fosters fast twitch attributes, meaning less myoglobin, less dense capillary network, less oxidative enzymes so forth. A little counterintuitive to real endurance work. Sure you can convert the charactiristics back, but I don't know if it's with added muscular endurance benefit. Keeping in line with the SAID principles in the OP.

Obviously nitpicking here. If you have a balanced S&C program with any sort of periodization it wont hold you back in the muscular endurance department and you'll still get all the benefits from maximal strength work. I also see a lot of benefit in doing GPP work or building a base and then working from there. I was just thinking about the PL crowd that thinks that upping your 1RM is endurance training too.

I think maximal strength is an important attribute in regards to power, but is given a little too much credit. It depends on where you are the the force velocity curve. Punching, kicking, throwing a ball, kicking a ball so forth it matters less and other attributes are equally or more important imo.

Lol it always sounds like I'm against heavy resistance training or something, but I'm actually not at all. Hope it doesn't come off that way, or like I'm being argumentative. I know you run a solid program!

 

[JosephDredd]

If you'd want someone to break down your S&C sessions outside BJJ according to that infograph up there you'd have to pay someone to do it, and even then it would be very difficult.

Let's go back to the two parts I talked about earlier.

1. What is your strong and weak points physically on the mat? What do you excell at, or what are you poor at regarding positions?

2. What are the physical requirements of the sport? - Flexibility, muscular endurance, grip strength, ?, ?

I've got bad shoulders, kyphosis and poor flexibility. I've built up staggering muscle imbalances in my chest and shoulder girdle to compensate for the shoulders and posture. I'm putting the work in with strength and mobility exercises to get everything awesome again. I'm not dissatisfied with my S&C, I'm actually very satisfied with it, but in BJJ I've developed a thoughtful, go-with-the-flow style and I really need to get physical in my rolls again.

I'm thinking that once every sparring session I'll go as hard as I can and practise both the mentality and the physicality of blasting constantly, focusing on maximal muscle tension in these rolls.

then I'll go back to go-with-the-flow for the day and, over time, slowly build up quality habits.

I just feel like I need to be smart with this since I ended up learning to go with the flow because I used to go hard every practise and only wound up exhausting myself and getting nowhere (and frequently injuring my shoulders). So if I'm going to roll like a physical beast again I'm going to treat it like a low-rep strength workout. Which means staying fresh and focusing on generating maximal tension instead of generating "just enough", imo. Since I'm doing BJJ, SAID should take care of the rest.

 

[Genghiz]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I'm not sure that conversion always works like that. The idea that higher max strength equals more muscular endurance, even with conversion training is not always the case. The rhetoric on that is usually that if you have more strength, then lifting sub-maximal loads gets easier and you can do more reps. While that is mostly true, it's not exactly the same as you improving your muscular endurance. The lower the weight gets, the less maximal strength matters as well.

Just look at the physiology of muscle fibers. Primarily doing max strength work fosters fast twitch attributes, meaning less myoglobin, less dense capillary network, less oxidative enzymes so forth. A little counterintuitive to real endurance work. Sure you can convert the charactiristics back, but I don't know if it's with added muscular endurance benefit. Keeping in line with the SAID principles in the OP.

Obviously nitpicking here. If you have a balanced S&C program with any sort of periodization it wont hold you back in the muscular endurance department and you'll still get all the benefits from maximal strength work. I also see a lot of benefit in doing GPP work or building a base and then working from there. I was just thinking about the PL crowd that thinks that upping your 1RM is endurance training too.

I think maximal strength is an important attribute in regards to power, but is given a little too much credit. It depends on where you are the the force velocity curve. Punching, kicking, throwing a ball, kicking a ball so forth it matters less and other attributes are equally or more important imo.

Lol it always sounds like I'm against heavy resistance training or something, but I'm actually not at all. Hope it doesn't come off that way, or like I'm being argumentative. I know you run a solid program!

Not at all.

It's not always black and white, a lot of it depends on where you're starting off, what your strengths and weaknesses are. Also depends on how effective your "conversion" training is. Running a progressive structured push-up program after a few blocks of maximal strength will probably give you better results than randomly doing Bag work throughout the week with no structured progress.

That being said, the relationship between max-strength and muscular endurance is fairly well established:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19620916/

 

[Genghiz]

I was just thinking about the PL crowd that thinks that upping your 1RM is endurance training too.
!

Great point! Totally agree. There's a middle ground. Strength training is just one quality (a foundational quality) but different doses for different endeavours. A UFC fighter doesn't need to deadlift 600lbs to be a world champion. A podium powerlifter doesn't need to spend any time on blocks of concentrated strength-endurance work unless it's for taking a break and possibly working on connective tissue etc.

 

[Genghiz]

Magic

Genghiz, I have a question for you if you don't mind answering. I have read that maximal power production occurs when the load is about 30% of your 1 rep max. However, caan you still developed explosiveness if the weight exceeds 30% of your one rep max? Hopefully that makes sense.

I know what you're asking but I don't know what the exact number or range is. I think you're in the ballpark with 30-50% for optimal expression though.

 

[Cmart]

I was just thinking about the PL crowd that thinks that upping your 1RM is endurance training too.

I don't think anyone here, or anyone involved in powerlifting that I know, has ever said this. In fact, typically the closer one's training takes them to testing their 1RM (like a meet) the more their cardio falls to the wayside.

But do go ahead and give me your source that justifies you saying something like this.

 

[JauntyAngle]

I don't think anyone here, or anyone involved in powerlifting that I know, has ever said this. In fact, typically the closer one's training takes them to testing their 1RM (like a meet) the more their cardio falls to the wayside.

But do go ahead and give me your source that justifies you saying something like this.

I've heard this several times, although I can't provide a quote. Not for quite some time though. The idea is that if you increase your 1RM, then a very low intensity motion is a lower percentage of your max and so you can do it more times. I.E if I increase my squat from 300lbs to 400lbs then one step while walking decreases from 0.002% of my 1RM to 0.0015% of my 1RM. So I can do 15,000 steps instead of 10,000 steps. Or something like that. It's pretty stupid, which is why not that many people say it.

 

[JosephDredd]

I don't think anyone here, or anyone involved in powerlifting that I know, has ever said this. In fact, typically the closer one's training takes them to testing their 1RM (like a meet) the more their cardio falls to the wayside.

But do go ahead and give me your source that justifies you saying something like this.

I've heard many people say this, using the analogy of a rope ladder we're you're trying to raise all the rungs.

strength
power
endurance
whatever

They say that if you train for whatever, the only rung raised will be whatever. If you train for endurance you'll raise endurance and whatever, since it's the rung hanging from endurance. But if you train strength, you'll raise all the rungs hanging from it.

I can't count the number of times I've heard this analogy. The only source I can site from memory is Charles Staley's EDT book.