If the power in a punch is mostly generated by the legs, shouldn't kickers have greater potential?

[spacetime]

well the highest amount of evidence is in shavers favor every fighter that fought him said he hit the hardest bar none

The hardest pound for pound could be Julian Jackson.

 

[spacetime]

Lennox Lewis most certainly punched harder than Tyson too but Tyson had such great qualities as a puncher combined with that power that it was just as effective.

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

The hardest pound for pound could be Julian Jackson.

it almost definitely is hes almost in a league of his own without anyone near, even hearns doesn't come close

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

Lennox Lewis most certainly punched harder than Tyson too but Tyson had such great qualities as a puncher combined with that power that it was just as effective.

hard to say Lewis had so much more mass and length size and he kept his stance more bladed which is better for the right hand its very close between them

yes you can get a spectacular KO artist and then you can get a guy that hits harder than him but doesnt have very impressive knockouts in say a video highlight but thats more to do with effectiveness and style than just power

 

[spacetime]

hard to say Lewis had so much more mass and length size and he kept his stance more bladed which is better for the right hand its very close between them

They were both heavyweights. If Lewis had Tysons body he would have likely punched like him too, so I don't think that matters. What matters is their weights in relation to the force they generated.

 

[JSnake]

For fucks sake...let's look at some straight punches then:









The head still moves. Every punch has it's own distinct mechanics. Not every punch is the same. You're the only one who said that. However, the head will still move on every punch, to a lesser or greater degree depending on a few factors already explained to you.

Forget the leg, that's not even important. The relevant point to this thread is that the only reason the punch hurt Kimbo is because he ran into it with his chin straight in the air and his head out in front of his feet. Even still, despite him literally throwing himself head first into the punch, he wasn't knocked out by it. He caught himself on all fours and tried to defend from half guard, but got swarmed and finished. If the punch had any real power on it's own, Kimbo throwing himself onto it would have gotten him hurt a lot worse than he was.

Are you seriously that dense? Technique is not the only factor in how hard someone hits. What a ridiculous claim to make. Tyson is unanimously regarded as one of the most powerful punchers in history, but because he wasn't literally THE hardest puncher ever you're gonna try to disregard his technique? There are many more factors than technique and mass. For someone who claims to have such a broadened perspective of power you should probably know that.

At the end of the day, the core issue here is that to maximize power in a punch, you have to engage your hips and shift your weight.

When you do those things, your head moves automatically.

Matter of fact, speaking of Shaver, let's watch how much his head moves on his power punches:



I seriously don't understand why you're continuing to argue other than not wanting to admit that you're wrong. The best punchers all engage their hips and shift their weight, which naturally results in their head moving off center. I gave you a video explaining why that happens by a highly respected coach, I showed you examples of elite fighters demonstrating it for multiple different punches, and I wrote out multiple times why it happens. You're the one that sounds like you have zero practical experience learning and watching punches from legitimately good punchers. If you did, you should have noticed by now that their heads always moves subtly during power punches and without any conscious effort. You could verify this in the mirror, by watching punching tutorials or by watching any good puncher, but instead you're here speaking purely in theory and acting like I'm the one who needs more evidence. There's a reason not a single person on this forum has stepped in to agree with you, even the TKD guy who started the thread. You're in denial of the fundamentals of punching technique.

Looks like you don't have an understanding of footwork either. You think a punch thrown against a moving target where the centerline has to be constantly re-positioned relative to the opponent will be the same as simply throwing a punch at the air straight in front of you while stationary? The Taekwondo practitioner merely had to focus on the technique of throwing a punch itself, without even having to cross his centerline. There's an obvious difference between how they throw their punches which you somehow haven't been able to see.

When your knees buckle like that, it's not simply a matter of being off-balance, it's a neurological reaction to that force penetrating through to the brain and nervous system. A weak, short, arm-punch thrown in his field of vision, while he's grounded is not going to have that kind of penetration unless there's power behind it. Kimbo was hurt more badly by it than you could detect; fighters have gone out momentarily after taking a punch and the force of hitting the ground, or subsequent punches simply wake them up.

Tyson is known for being an accumulative puncher not a one-hitter quitter. His KOs come more from the speed of his punches rather than their raw power. According to Holmes right after he lost to him, Tyson does not even rank close to the other fighters he's faced in terms of power. When Sugar Ray Leonard brought up past opponents and how they compared to Tyson, in Larry's words, "the other guys punch much harder":



Trevor Berbick expresses this after his lost to Tyson as well; that his punches are not a "one-shot knockout thing", but that it's a "funny type of punch that comes at different angles" which he's not able to see or react fast enough to:



The casual viewer will typically think Tyson is the most powerful puncher because his punches may "look" that way due to their speed and ferocity, or that his technique epitomizes that of a boxer which should be modeled and admired; but to the trained eye it can be different. This may sound blasphemous to you, but personally I don't consider Tyson to be a great puncher and I find his technique to be flawed. Why? Because he's not as centered, his squared stance limits him in that regard, offering more mobility but sacrificing his potential of staying in his center when power is all about finding your center. Boxers like Earnie Shavers, George Foreman, or Gennady Golovkin employ a more angled stance that orients them closer towards their center of gravity and favors their energetic potential for throwing a punch.

It may sound like "nonsense" to you, but while you look at fighters like Foreman who fight tall, don't appear to bend their knees/sit down on their punches, or rotate their body much--as an anomaly that breaks your rules for generating power; it's not the same in my book, he simply does the technique for throwing a power punch more efficiently than your average boxer. If there's one thing Big George knows best it's how to punch, he may not be as great a boxer as Tyson who can flow effortlessly between offense and defensive movement, but you don't need to be when it comes to the technique of simply transferring energy.

Between the two of us, I think I'm the only one that actually did the exact same straight punch in the same stance the Taekwondo practitioner was employing, next to a mirror; while you're simply generalizing from outside, irrelevant observation. What I've been trying to tell you is that if I do the punch with the right technique with moderate power my head will move very slightly; when I do it at full power with the right technique, my head stays still apart from my whole body bouncing up with the motion. All that tells me is you and others can't do it; you're not centered enough. It's fine if you don't believe me, I'm not trying to enforce my beliefs on others; more power is not something everyone deserves to have.

If a potential student is inquisitive and coming to you for advice, you should keep your ego in check in the future. A true martial artist is always receptive to learning and getting different outlooks on things. Having stale, obstinate thinking and attacking the person asking the question or for evidence only shows insecurity. Looking for other peoples approval as well reveals a lack of confidence in your position on account of a lack of evidence or the ability to articulate the argument yourself. Our relative join dates would attest to the difference in our experience and I also know of books and videos that would support my beliefs, so I am quite secure with my position, just not arrogant enough to claim it as a "fact".

 

[a guy]

Looks like you don't have an understanding of footwork either. You think a punch thrown against a moving target where the centerline has to be constantly re-positioned relative to the opponent will be the same as simply throwing a punch at the air straight in front of you while stationary? The Taekwondo practitioner merely had to focus on the technique of throwing a punch itself, without even having to cross his centerline. There's an obvious difference between how they throw their punches which you somehow haven't been able to see.

When your knees buckle like that, it's not simply a matter of being off-balance, it's a neurological reaction to that force penetrating through to the brain and nervous system. A weak, short, arm-punch thrown in his field of vision, while he's grounded is not going to have that kind of penetration unless there's power behind it. Kimbo was hurt more badly by it than you could detect; fighters have gone out momentarily after taking a punch and the force of hitting the ground, or subsequent punches simply wake them up.

Tyson is known for being an accumulative puncher not a one-hitter quitter. His KOs come more from the speed of his punches rather than their raw power. According to Holmes right after he lost to him, Tyson does not even rank close to the other fighters he's faced in terms of power. When Sugar Ray Leonard brought up past opponents and how they compared to Tyson, in Larry's words, "the other guys punch much harder":



Trevor Berbick expresses this after his lost to Tyson as well; that his punches are not a "one-shot knockout thing", but that it's a "funny type of punch that comes at different angles" which he's not able to see or react fast enough to:



The casual viewer will typically think Tyson is the most powerful puncher because his punches may "look" that way due to their speed and ferocity, or that his technique epitomizes that of a boxer which should be modeled and admired; but to the trained eye it can be different. This may sound blasphemous to you, but personally I don't consider Tyson to be a great puncher and I find his technique to be flawed. Why? Because he's not as centered, his squared stance limits him in that regard, offering more mobility but sacrificing his potential of staying in his center when power is all about finding your center. Boxers like Earnie Shavers, George Foreman, or Gennady Golovkin employ a more angled stance that orients them closer towards their center of gravity and favors their energetic potential for throwing a punch.

It may sound like "nonsense" to you, but while you look at fighters like Foreman who fight tall, don't appear to bend their knees/sit down on their punches, or rotate their body much--as an anomaly that breaks your rules for generating power; it's not the same in my book, he simply does the technique for throwing a power punch more efficiently than your average boxer. If there's one thing Big George knows best it's how to punch, he may not be as great a boxer as Tyson who can flow effortlessly between offense and defensive movement, but you don't need to be when it comes to the technique of simply transferring energy.

Between the two of us, I think I'm the only one that actually did the exact same straight punch in the same stance the Taekwondo practitioner was employing, next to a mirror; while you're simply generalizing from outside, irrelevant observation. What I've been trying to tell you is that if I do the punch with the right technique with moderate power my head will move very slightly; when I do it at full power with the right technique, my head stays still apart from my whole body bouncing up with the motion. All that tells me is you and others can't do it; you're not centered enough. It's fine if you don't believe me, I'm not trying to enforce my beliefs on others; more power is not something everyone deserves to have.

If a potential student is inquisitive and coming to you for advice, you should keep your ego in check in the future. A true martial artist is always receptive to learning and getting different outlooks on things. Having stale, obstinate thinking and attacking the person asking the question or for evidence only shows insecurity. Looking for other peoples approval as well reveals a lack of confidence in your position on account of a lack of evidence or the ability to articulate the argument yourself. Our relative join dates would attest to the difference in our experience and I also know of books and videos that would support my beliefs, so I am quite secure with my position, just not arrogant enough to claim it as a "fact".

Your condescending posts about my supposed lack of knowledge, experience and perspective don't make you look right, especially when I'm the one providing all the evidence and you're the one speaking purely in theory. So Foreman doesn't move his head as he punches a stationary target?



I'm sure you'll say those don't count because they're not hooks. Well, lets look at Shavers demonstrating his straight right:



Wow, look at the movement of his head! It's almost like regardless of what punch they're throwing or what they're hitting, hard punchers will shift their weight from foot to foot which will result in a movement of their head, almost like that's just how your body works.

How about Golovkin?



I even broke that one down to frames for you so it's easier to see that shift.

How about it demonstrated by an accredited boxing coach?

https://gfycat.com/AdmiredWeepyGrebe

Or former Glory World Champ kickboxer?

https://gfycat.com/ZanyLikableBedbug

Again, look at the sublte movement of the head purely as a result of the shift of weight, rotation and engagement of the hips.

And by the way, I've been showing this for power shots, but when guys want to put power on their jab their head also moves:

https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/FrequentWhirlwindFluke

This time most of the weight shift is coming from the footwork rather than the hips or rotation, but the principle of weight transfer is still there.

You're getting way off track with all this shit, so let's focus on the core of the issue: proper punching involves a shift of weight and torso rotation, which together result in subtle movements of the head. This is evident by not only watching every power puncher ever, but by the absolute most basic understanding of body mechanics, or even 5 seconds of rocking back and forth in the mirror. I've now provided a video by a highly regarded coach explaining this, multiple examples for different kinds of punches being thrown in different contexts, and personally explained to you why it happens. You're ignoring all of this to make condescending comments about my join date of all things, when you've done nothing but speak in theory that you can't back up with any practical evidence. Let's see a video of you, or anyone, hitting with power without their head moving as a natural result. No, not Kimbo running head first into a punch with his chin in the air, you might as well post the Silva vs Griffin knockdown lmao.

I'm very open to different outlooks when they aren't ignoring basic facts of body mechanics, and when that outlook is backed by practical evidence instead of nonsense theory about "orienting with their own center of gravity". I'm also very interested in the opinions of others, because when nobody agrees with me that's a good sign that it's time to reevaluate what I'm saying--something you should probably start doing.

 

[spacetime]

Tyson not a great puncher. Lol. Tyson had major weaknesses as a fighter that were exploitable if he didn't get off to a flying start. He became more and more impatient, swung wildly and missed heavily. But he was still a great puncher and boxer. I think Lennox Lewis probably beats a prime Tyson 100 times out of 100 in any normal scenario but Iron Mike is still my hero.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

Tyson not a great puncher. Lol. Tyson had major weaknesses as a fighter that were exploitable if he didn't get off to a flying start. He became more and more impatient, swung wildly and missed heavily. But he was still a great puncher and boxer. I think Lennox Lewis probably beats a prime Tyson 100 times out of 100 in any normal scenario but Iron Mike is still my hero.

Tyson was great but got worse when he changed trainers/handlers and also jail. He was not only powerful but also paid a lot of attention to executing sharp technique/angles and the combo of those two things together made him a legit nightmare.

 

[spacetime]

Tyson was great but got worse when he changed trainers/handlers and also jail. He was not only powerful but also paid a lot of attention to executing sharp technique/angles and the combo of those two things together made him a legit nightmare.

He still went the distance against lesser boxers in his prime. People way overestimate Mike Tyson. I think he would beat Sonny Liston among the greats, for sure, but that's about it.

 

[Reyesnuthugr]

He still went the distance against lesser boxers in his prime. People way overestimate Mike Tyson. I think he would beat Sonny Liston among the greats, for sure, but that's about it.

It's not his fault if he's overestimated by people, you can do that with anyone great and interesting and it usually does happen to them. Every amazing person is overestimated by their fans, it should be expected.

He was still brilliant at what he did, and I was never one of his fans, I'm just speaking objectively. You can watch him and learn things because he utilized a lot of technical knowledge and executed it beautifully.

 

[LukeSkyrocker]

The mechanics are completely different. With kicks it's reltaively easy to get power into it you rarely hear about featherlegged fighters. Holly Holm has no weight in her punches and even she manages to get power into kicks it's much simpler speaking just about power.

It's abotu technique. if it was just about physical potential then sprinters should have the hardets kicks and even punches same with olympic lifters and athletes like that.

Bisping has to have the weakest kicks in the UFC

 

[PivotPunch]

Bisping has to have the weakest kicks in the UFC

Yeah but he rarely kicks anyway and when he does he doesn't commit to it. If you 100% commit to a kick and have basic technqiue you have power. Bisping throws kicks purely to score. But with punches you haveeven elite boxers such as Timothy Bradley who seem to sometimes throw huge hayemakers and put everything into a punch yet never seem to do much damage.

I have yet to see anyone who kciks with 100% commitment not have some power

 

[spacetime]

Crocop had massive legs, a kicking background and unsurprisingly among the hardest kicks in Kickboxing. What a coincidence

 

[spacetime]

I have yet to see anyone who kciks with 100% commitment not have some power

I see it everyday..

 

[PivotPunch]

I see it everyday..

Even in local gyms if you see any adult even women kick with at least 99% correct technique and effort they kick hard. I have never seen anyone who doesn't. If they kick like shit or don't have the skills to land it in sparring then it's obviously a different matter

 

[spacetime]

Even in local gyms if you see any adult even women kick with at least 99% correct technique and effort they kick hard. I have never seen anyone who doesn't. If they kick like shit or don't have the skills to land it in sparring then it's obviously a different matter

Any guy can punch with power too

 

[PivotPunch]

Any guy can punch with power too

Yes but not compared to elite guys. At a high level everyone has a bit of power but someone like Timothy Bradley can't get close to someone like Errol Spence. Pauli malignaggi surely hits harder than many guys at your local gym but he is featherfisted compared to high level boxers and regardless of how much he puts into the shot a high level fighter will consider him to have little power.
But if any high level fighter 100% commits to a kick it has the power to hurt you

 

[spacetime]

Yes but not compared to elite guys. At a high level everyone has a bit of power but someone like Timothy Bradley can't get close to someone like Errol Spence. Pauli malignaggi surely hits harder than many guys at your local gym but he is featherfisted compared to high level boxers and regardless of how much he puts into the shot a high level fighter will consider him to have little power.
But if any high level fighter 100% commits to a kick it has the power to hurt you

Bob Sapp hits way harder than plenty of pro boxers in the same weight and he doesnt know what he is doing. Kicking hard is probably more difficult due to the hip twisting combined with a certain amount of flexibility.

 

[PivotPunch]

Bob Sapp hits way harder than plenty of pro boxers in the same weight and he doesnt know what he is doing. Kicking hard is probably more difficult due to the hip twisting combined with a certain amount of flexibility.

No it's not more difficult.

First of all some people have a natural grasp for striking and can get power into their shots. Also having pretty technique overall with good defence isn't a requirement for being good at transfering weight. You can have really awlward punches and still have proper technique weight transfer wise and get 100% of the power. George Foreman for example.

Also Sapp didn't hit THAT hard. that guy was 300lbs of prue muscle and a pretty good athlete so he had power just because of that. Also again he put his weight into his punches it's just everything else he did wrong. And still he wasn't that huge of a puncher. His most impressive stoppage was of Hoost and he just overwelmed him. he obviously had power but Hoost was never close to losing consciousness he just had enough power to hurt someone and overwelmed him.

Mark Hunt is far from the greatest kicker but he has some of the hardest lowkicks in the history of MMA. Ricco Rodriguez wasn't some great technical striker he was good for his era but he had insanely hard low kicks.

You don't need to have overall god technqiue to punch hard you just need good technique in the transfer of weight and/or great physical attributes