*If Lebron wins this year championship against the Warriors + Durant...*

asharak said:
What is there to be angry about? You guys seem to be angry that LeBron is passing Jordan in every way except rings in the same way that Jordan passed Russell.

To reiterate the basic argument

LeBron is a better scorer in efficiency, 3 pointers, and playoff game winners.

LeBron is a better defender[average playoff dbpm of 3.4, peak of 5.8 compared to Jordan's 1.8 and 4.2(but only 3.2 in a year when he didn't get swept out of the first round)]

Overall, LeBron Crushes Jordan in VORP by 37% in the playoffs, with his peak being 14% better than Jordan's.
His BPM is

Also, LeBron is playing in a much better era. Players today are much more talented. It was only in 2007 that the most offensively efficient team in the playoffs was more offensively efficient than the least offensively efficient team of this years playoffs. Shooting was much worse. Most players were irrelevant outside of 15 feet.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/seasontype/3

(edited to add the links to stats)


Just like how Russell never had to worry about it when Jordan failed to win four in a row(cause he won 8 in a row). Jordan was still the better player in a better era(just like LeBron is)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/seasontype/3

(edited to add the links to stats)
Click to expand...

Stats are a ridiculous metric for determining GOAT. Much of the output is relative to the load asked or required by the player. For example, Russell Westbrook finished the season 23.9/7.7/10.6 in '15-'16 with Durant and 31.6/10.4/10.7 in '16-'17 without Durant. Now either he got about 20% better in one season or he was simply asked to do more without a second option of Durant's caliber.

Determining GOAT has to be done through a mixture of stats, rings, eye test, competition, the team they played on, playoffs/finals performances, and intangibles like crunch time and competitiveness. When looking at the players through a multi-faceted metric Jordan obviously shines far brighter than LeBron and frankly it's not even close.
 
*if*

H1Gz5SD.jpg
 
asharak said:
What is there to be angry about? You guys seem to be angry that LeBron is passing Jordan in every way except rings in the same way that Jordan passed Russell.

To reiterate the basic argument

LeBron is a better scorer in efficiency, 3 pointers, and playoff game winners.

LeBron is a better defender[average playoff dbpm of 3.4, peak of 5.8 compared to Jordan's 1.8 and 4.2(but only 3.2 in a year when he didn't get swept out of the first round)]

Overall, LeBron Crushes Jordan in VORP by 37% in the playoffs, with his peak being 14% better than Jordan's.
His BPM is

Also, LeBron is playing in a much better era. Players today are much more talented. It was only in 2007 that the most offensively efficient team in the playoffs was more offensively efficient than the least offensively efficient team of this years playoffs. Shooting was much worse. Most players were irrelevant outside of 15 feet.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/seasontype/3

(edited to add the links to stats)


Just like how Russell never had to worry about it when Jordan failed to win four in a row(cause he won 8 in a row). Jordan was still the better player in a better era(just like LeBron is)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/seasontype/3

(edited to add the links to stats)
Click to expand...




It's just as I suspected. Definitely a 10


There there. It will all be over soon bud
 
Yeah, you can't be the GOAT if you always defer to your teammates in the final seconds of close games.

Lebrons Killer instinct is a cartridge that he puts in his N64.
 
Prefect said:
He had a few good seasons that were extremely well rounded. But that wasn't his whole career. His defense was a steller but analytics show steals are extremely overrated compared to rebounding.

People forget that the Bulls were a sub .500 team until 87. To me, that says more about pip pen and others than Jordan.

lebron got the team above .500 his second season. That was with a bad cast and as a 19 year old.
Click to expand...

Well if you want to go at it from that direction I would say Magic Johnson was sort of the Lebron before Lebron. Magic actually was magical in his skill level.

As a rookie, I mean seriously, think this one through, as a rookie....

Selected to NBA All-Rookie Team
Named NBA All-Star starter
Went to the Finals against the 76'ers led by Dr. J
Game 5 of the Finals Kareem had a sprained ankle so coach Westhead started Magic at Center position, he scored 42 points, 15 Rebounds, 7 Assists, and 3 Steals while playing Guard, Forward, and Center during the same game, as a rookie, in the Finals.
Became the only rookie in NBA history to win the Finals MVP award
Became one of only 4 players to win NCAA Champonships and NBA Finals in consecutive years.

That alone is otherworldly but that isn't all Magic did. The man lived in the Finals from his Rookie season forward. From 1980 to 1991 he went to the Finals an astounding 9 times, winning 5 times.

Magic Johnson played in 9 NBA finals, winning 5: Won: 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988 Lost: 1983, 1984, 1989, 1991

People think Lebron is the first guy to come along and make it to the Finals so often, Magic lived in the Finals, it was his home. If not for aids he probably would have set records that would never be broken and his talent level was off the charts. He was the best player in the NBA as a Rookie.

th
 
Last edited:
Marce Porter said:
Can't believe I'm the only one mentioning the LeBron Blames completely disappeared over the final 6 minutes...again. Every time when it's close and late, he hides. The anti-MJ.
Click to expand...

Yeah well what about average playoff DBPM? And VORP?

I won't even bring up NAACP, AARP and KTFO. Bern crushes MJ in all those.
 
Possum Jenkins said:
Yeah well what about average playoff DBPM? And VORP?

I won't even bring up NAACP, AARP and KTFO. Bern crushes MJ in all those.
Click to expand...



If you think that's impressive you should check out his FML rating, it's off the charts right now lol
 
LeBeta's DNB metrics are at an all-time high
 
RichardSwingslo said:
Yeah, you can't be the GOAT if you always defer to your teammates in the final seconds of close games.

Lebrons Killer instinct is a cartridge that he puts in his N64.
Click to expand...

He makes the same decision in the final minutes that he makes during most of the game. Not being affected by the pressure/situation and doing the same things that make you great are what makes one clutch. Derek Jeter is considered clutch because he was the same player in pressure situations as he was in normal situations. LeBron makes the same decisions and actually hits at a better than normal percentage than on playoff game winners. Jordan and Kobe, on the other hand, shot lower percentages than normal on the same shots. He always attempts to make the best basketball play. Korver with an open 3 is the higher percentage play than a contested 2, and would have iced the game if Korver made it.
 
asharak said:
He makes the same decision in the final minutes that he makes during most of the game. Not being affected by the pressure/situation and doing the same things that make you great are what makes one clutch. Derek Jeter is considered clutch because he was the same player in pressure situations as he was in normal situations. LeBron makes the same decisions and actually hits at a better than normal percentage than on playoff game winners. Jordan and Kobe, on the other hand, shot lower percentages than normal on the same shots. He always attempts to make the best basketball play. Korver with an open 3 is the higher percentage play than a contested 2, and would have iced the game if Korver made it.
Click to expand...
Bull shit, he had draymond green off balance and reaching with an open lane to the rim on the right side.

Green also had 5 fouls and pretty much would have had to foul LeVern to try to make him hit 2 free throws(which Vern is also horrible at).

Or how about Game 6 against the spurs where in the final few minutes he commits a couple of ungodly turnovers, then when he does take a shot he missed badly and was bailed out by Ray Allen not being afraid to take the last shot.

Or how about that finals performance against Dallas where he totaled like 15 points COMBINED in the fourth quarters of the entire series.
 
asharak said:
That's why I'm the only one here positing an actual provable argument
Click to expand...
You're posting numbers that have no context to them.

The East hasn't been as good as the West for a long time.

From '89 to 1998 the east won 8 titles to the wests 2. That was 2 from the pistons and then the first bulls 3peat.
Jordan retires, then the rockets go back to back, and then you get the 2nd bulls 3peat.
After Jordan retires again the west go on to win 12 titles to the easts 6
Unless it was Lebron with his super teams, the western conference finals were the real finals.

What Lebron has done is impressive and he will go down as one of the best. Just not the best.

Jordan's competitiveness, drive, and heart all trump any athletic ability that Lebron has.
 
asharak said:
He makes the same decision in the final minutes that he makes during most of the game. Not being affected by the pressure/situation and doing the same things that make you great are what makes one clutch. Derek Jeter is considered clutch because he was the same player in pressure situations as he was in normal situations. LeBron makes the same decisions and actually hits at a better than normal percentage than on playoff game winners. Jordan and Kobe, on the other hand, shot lower percentages than normal on the same shots. He always attempts to make the best basketball play. Korver with an open 3 is the higher percentage play than a contested 2, and would have iced the game if Korver made it.
Click to expand...
Korver wasn't open lol. Sure he was in the corner but it didn't take some herculean effort to close out on him. There were 2 or 3 dudes withing 5-8 feet of him. With all of the calls the cavs were getting you'd think Lebron would just put his head down and try and force the issue but he took the easy way out. It wasn't a terrible play but I think it was def questionable.
 
RichardSwingslo said:
Jordan's competitiveness, drive, and heart all trump any athletic ability that Lebron has.
Click to expand...

They're neck and neck in athletic ability as well.

Lebron has about 40 pounds on MJ so of course he's going to be stronger but that also made MJ much quicker.

I might give MJ the nudge in leaping ability as well. He blocked as many shots as Bern despite being a guard and being 2-3 inches shorter.

Passing is really the only thing that Lebron clearly has over Michael.
 
@asharak Since you love stats, can you find me a playoff series where Jordan averaged a 13.6 or less GmSc and -6 or worse +/-? ;)
 
since you're not qouting a series where lebron did, can you name a series where lebron shot less than 33% and/or lost in the 1st round?
 
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