If BJJ is to evolve into a complete grappling martial art, it needs to combine with wrestling and...

[Roljo]

As many MMA fans have seen and pointed out in the recent years, fighters with a BJJ base have a difficult time reaching championship level and often fall short.

One of the main alleged reasons for this is BJJ's lack of effective techniques to get the fight to the ground where BJJ is king. Because BJJ was built from Japanese Jujutsu and Judo, it relied on takedown techniques from these disciplines. However, takedown techniques from Judo and Jujutsu are not adequate as compared to the techniques in wrestling.

Therefore, some efforts have been made by BJJ trainers to incorporate wrestling into their arsenal to evolve BJJ into a more complete grappling martial art.

However, I believe this is not enough to evolve a martial art.

As a long time MMA fan and someone who has taken TMAs, I recognize the importance of full contact competition and how the rules of these competition shape the evolution of the martial art itself.

It dawned on me how important and overlooked this is after I read the follow post:

@WARinsertname:

BJJ and grappling comps usually do not award a guy keeping it standing. So either one guy is taking the other down or one is pulling guard.

There is no real sense of urgency or need to go full boar into takedowns like in wrestling or MMA.

Look at bjj and no gi matches. The guys aren't super aggressive at taking the other down...USUALLY. Both guys tend to softly play chess instead of driving a single or double.

Not all guys are like that...There are players who will go after it.​

This observation is spot on!!! The type of high-level full contact competitions that are available and how the competitions are scored have shaped and will shape how the martial artists fight and the evolution of martial arts themselves, as time passes.

For example, in Karate and Tae Kwondo, the competitions are point based, so over the years, these styles have been fine-tuned for point fighting and not really for real full-contact knockouts that is suitable for real combats like in MMA.

On the flip side, Muay Thai competitions are about who can avoid / absorb damages while dissing out the most firepower to KO the opponents, and thus, Muay Thai's training system has evolved into one that focused heavily on conditioning and simple but powerful techniques.

Getting back to BJJ and wrestling... if BJJ is to evolve into a complete grappling martial art by combining with wrestling, then the competition's rule and scoring system must ALSO combine wrestling's rule and scoring. Such a grappling match would have to allow and reward for takedowns, slams, control, pins, etc. (as in wrestling) and allows for submission holds (as in BJJ).

you mean sambo ?

 

[loyalyolayal]

Just about every takedown from wrestling exists in Judo. Just as well as it IS a form of wrestling.

Jacket wrestling.

 

[KingBeef]

It's MIXED marital arts. Just MIX in wrestling with your training.

 

[mkess101]

Maia became one of the most effective guys in the world at WW at getting fights to the mat for awhile (obviously he's past his prime now). Jacare similar at MW.

Similarly, top tier guys with wrestling backgrounds like Khabib or Gillespie or DC realize the importance of submission fundamentals and incorporating bjj/judo/catch wrestling into their games.

Basically, any serious guy with designs on actually being a true mixed martial artist realizes the importance of just being a good GRAPPLER overall, not a specialist that has holes in their grappling game.

 

[NoSmilez]

Sambo rules are confusing as fuck too. It also has it's weakness, they almost have no guard work. They were known for their footlocks when bjj practitioners frowned upon them(up to 15 years ago) but bjj schools nowadays teach wrist locks and ankle locks at a lower belt now. If anything the bjj guys took the footlock game to the next level.
I just think it's the time allotted to teach the class. Most classes are like an hour. You warmup and stretch is roughly 15 minutes. You show 2-3 techniques and you roll. I am not particularly talented at bjj, I can't apply what I learned within that class and I just use what I am comfortable with during the roll. If I learn a throw, I will most likely never use it and just use a bodylock that I was comfortable using in muaythai.

 

[TapMachine]

you mean sambo ?

Problem with sambo is that a large chunk of its techniques need to be modified or thrown out entirely since they wrestle in jackets and there's no form of no-gi sambo, as far as I know. Now, if some crazy Russian guy were to create no-gi sambo, that would be interesting.

 

[Levi_]

The reason top BJJ guys aren't winning in MMA these days is a whole lot easier to explain- the same reason pro boxers aren't winning in MMA- they AREN'T COMPETING in it much. Unlike wrestlers, they can make money elsewhere.

This whole "wrestling is superior in MMA" argument has been made a lot, and it is absolutely laughable. The game is about coming up with a skill set that matches up well, and no combat art or sport is superior.

 

[elwani]

I feel like by the end of this thought process, we would have just re-invented the sport of mixed martial arts.

 

[Andre Xiong]

Judo wasn't even a term then when Maeda taught Carlos Sr. You wanna bitch about BJJ, have you seen what the IJF did to Judo?

I agree, they were probably just Jiu jitsu guys at the time

I don’t consider judo and Jiu jitsu too different, judo was just more sporty to keep Jiu jitsu alive at a time when Japan was civilizing and arm breaks and choke holds weren’t glamorous

 

[loyalyolayal]

I agree, they were probably just Jiu jitsu guys at the time

I don’t consider judo and Jiu jitsu too different, judo was just more sporty to keep Jiu jitsu alive at a time when Japan was civilizing and arm breaks and choke holds weren’t glamorous

They wanted it to be spectacular and quick for the audience to be considered an olympic sport.

 

[TapMachine]

The reason top BJJ guys aren't winning in MMA these days is a whole lot easier to explain- the same reason pro boxers aren't winning in MMA- they AREN'T COMPETING in it much. Unlike wrestlers, they can make money elsewhere.

This whole "wrestling is superior in MMA" argument has been made a lot, and it is absolutely laughable. The game is about coming up with a skill set that matches up well, and no combat art or sport is superior.

The problem with this line of thought is the fact that wrestling is an absolutely mandatory part of your skill set in MMA, regardless of whether you're a striker or a grappler. For strikers, wrestling is needed to avoid takedowns while grapplers use it to get the fight to the ground. While claiming that wrestling is a superior martial art might be too much, but you cannot deny that it's THE superior base for a fighter's skill set in MMA, especially since most of the UFC champs have a wrestling base.

 

[moreorless87]

As many MMA fans have seen and pointed out in the recent years, fighters with a BJJ base have a difficult time reaching championship level and often fall short.

One of the main alleged reasons for this is BJJ's lack of effective techniques to get the fight to the ground where BJJ is king. Because BJJ was built from Japanese Jujutsu and Judo, it relied on takedown techniques from these disciplines. However, takedown techniques from Judo and Jujutsu are not adequate as compared to the techniques in wrestling.

No the issue is that a lot of BJJ guys just have poor takedown games all around including a lack of Judo technique in this area.

 

[Levi_]

The problem with this line of thought is the fact that wrestling is an absolutely mandatory part of your skill set in MMA, regardless of whether you're a striker or a grappler. For strikers, wrestling is needed to avoid takedowns while grapplers use it to get the fight to the ground. While claiming that wrestling is a superior martial art might be too much, but you cannot deny that it's THE superior base for a fighter's skill set in MMA, especially since most of the UFC champs have a wrestling base.

OK, but if you are basing it on "most UFC champs have a wrestling base," I return to my original point- wrestlers have no other means of making money, other arts do. There are zero top boxers or kickboxers (except a few that are WAY past their prime like CC) in the sport; few top BJJ guys. That argument really isn't convincing. The talent pool really hasn't developed in MMA because of the way the sport has been managed by the UFC; most great combat sport players would not find it worthwhile to enter MMA, and therefore don't.

JJ is a mandatory part of your skillset also; that's what top notch wrestlers like Severn found out when they entered early UFC's not knowing any JJ; they lost easily to much smaller fighters. Khabib would not have beaten Conor if he had not really improved his striking. That argument is really a tough sell for most people who have watched this sport since the beginning, and follow other combat sports.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

BJJ is finish-oriented, wrestling is more of a olympic sport, where points matter, not submission.

They're completely different, in fact, had they refrained on making up wrestlnig-friendly rules UFC would have never made into US, and therefore lost a shitload of money.

Just look at US in fighting before UFC, it was just boxing, and boxing alone would not be enough.

Wrestling friendly rules would allow knees to the head on the ground (from north-south and side control would help wrestlers in a big way, and since its mainly other wrestlers that stuff doubles, it wouldn't hurt them against non-wrestlers from stuffing), and allow head butts (the perfect technique for wrestlers). It also would get rid of the fence (makes takedowns much harder). As well, requiring activity from on top (and its usually wrestlers on top) hurts wrestlers more than anyone else.

And fighting in the US has always included wrestling - there have always been more wrestlers than boxers, and wrestlers have always known they could take down boxers and ground and pound them.

 

[TapMachine]

JJ is a mandatory part of your skillset also; that's what top notch wrestlers like Severn found out when they entered early UFC's not knowing any JJ; they lost easily to much smaller fighters. Khabib would not have beaten Conor if he had not really improved his striking. That argument is really a tough sell for most people who have watched this sport since the beginning, and follow other combat sports.

Not really. The actually mandatory part is submission defense, but submission defense is something that can be picked up from other martial arts like sambo, judo or maybe even catch wrestling. If you're a striker who prefers to stand and bang, you don't need to train specifically BJJ, you just need to know how to keep the fight standing (wrestling) and how to not get submitted when your TDD fails. From this PoV, wrestling is more important, because it's your first line of defense while sub defense is the second.

Also, your talent pool argument can be viewed from two different sides. You claim that wrestlers enter MMA as they have no possibility to make money anywhere else, which is true, however, it is also true that wrestling is a martial art which translates to MMA very well. So, in the end, the number of wrestlers in MMA relative to fighters with other disciplines as their base is high both because of wrestlers having less options to make money compared to other fighters AND because of wrestling being an amazing base for MMA.

 

[Levi_]

Not really. The actually mandatory part is submission defense, but submission defense is something that can be picked up from other martial arts like sambo, judo or maybe even catch wrestling. If you're a striker who prefers to stand and bang, you don't need to train specifically BJJ, you just need to know how to keep the fight standing (wrestling) and how to not get submitted when your TDD fails. From this PoV, wrestling is more important, because it's your first line of defense while sub defense is the second.

Also, your talent pool argument can be viewed from two different sides. You claim that wrestlers enter MMA as they have no possibility to make money anywhere else, which is true, however, it is also true that wrestling is a martial art which translates to MMA very well. So, in the end, the number of wrestlers in MMA relative to fighters with other disciplines as their base is high both because of wrestlers having less options to make money compared to other fighters AND because of wrestling being an amazing base for MMA.

Sub defense is actually part of JJ, and you have to learn the mechanics of those holds to be able to defend them. MMA fighters learn the whole game for a reason, even if they focus on certain things.

Regarding this sentence:
"So, in the end, the number of wrestlers in MMA relative to fighters with other disciplines as their base is high both because of wrestlers having less options to make money compared to other fighters <THIS IS A FACT AND because of wrestling being an amazing base for MMA " <THIS IS YOUR VERY DEBATABLE OPINION. It's a good base, but there is no proof that it is the best base.

Plenty of top wrestlers have failed in the sport, and plenty of guys based in other disciplines have been elite. In order to really see, we would have to have an equal number of each discipline train in the sport, and see who would dominate. Since we have mostly wrestlers, we are going to have mostly wrestlers winning; that doesn't prove anything.

 

[Stranger Come Knocking]

It has to become.Sambo?

 

[mkess101]

Sub defense is actually part of JJ, and you have to learn the mechanics of those holds to be able to defend them. MMA fighters learn the whole game for a reason, even if they focus on certain things.

Regarding this sentence:
"So, in the end, the number of wrestlers in MMA relative to fighters with other disciplines as their base is high both because of wrestlers having less options to make money compared to other fighters <THIS IS A FACT AND because of wrestling being an amazing base for MMA " <THIS IS YOUR VERY DEBATABLE OPINION. It's a good base, but there is no proof that it is the best base.

Plenty of top wrestlers have failed in the sport, and plenty of guys based in other disciplines have been elite. In order to really see, we would have to have an equal number of each discipline train in the sport, and see who would dominate. Since we have mostly wrestlers, we are going to have mostly wrestlers winning; that doesn't prove anything.

It is the fighter that matters, not the base. If the fighter adapts to MMA and realizes they need a complete grappling game (and they have the ability to train and become well rounded) they will thrive. If not...they won't.

Look at how Maia ragdolled a decorated wrestler in Sonnen. He didn't sub him off his back. He suplexed him with a wrestling/judo throw. That was an example of "a bjj guy" basically out wrestling a wrestler.

 

[Coconutwater]

While i agree that the rule set favors wrestling, bjj guys have a hard time taking down strikers who dedicate to takedown defence. I also dont get why these ground aces dont pull guard as a last resort. Get the fight to the ground any way possible.

Ortega tried and Kron does, but if they don’t pull it off, they’re vulnerable with both arms plumbed around the neck hoping the opponent drops into their guard. It can be a too static move. It works well in bjj because of no striking and the rules don’t go against such a concessional action.

Then many hobbyists, who prefer BJJ's low impact quality, would be driven away. This lessens the number of practitioners and the amount instructors can bill for their tutelage.

This x 100.

It’s obvious the rules in Jiu-Jitsu are meant to support monthly billing. This is why stand-up isn’t rewarded because it eats up mat space, people are more prone to injury in wrestling if the practitioners are older and that’s why heel hooks and knee bars took forever to be accepted in the bjj competition rule set.

 

[ithinktheymad]

Problem with sambo is that a large chunk of its techniques need to be modified or thrown out entirely since they wrestle in jackets and there's no form of no-gi sambo, as far as I know. Now, if some crazy Russian guy were to create no-gi sambo, that would be interesting.

You don't understand grappling.