I rewatched Heat last night for the first time in probably 20 years. Let's talk about it.

[DoomPatrol]

Watching the Waingro escape scene...

-Neil draws his gun leaving Waingro unrestrained
-Mike calls "hold it" cause there's cruisers doing circulars
-Neil takes his attention off the unrestrained Waingro and looks up to the cop cars
-Literally 9 seconds pass before Neil finally looks back down and sees Waingro is gone

What a plot hole

I always found it odd that such a professional would take his eyes off Waingro just because he had to wait a second. Seems incredibly unlike his character.

 

[Guestx]

Honestly I think its the kind of film were if you have an issue with it then the overall style is were its likely to be rather than specifics. For what it is done in the style it is I'd say its nearly perfect but you could certainly argue that Mann's crime thrillers are somewhat impersonal compared to the very best crime dramas.

They do tend to be quite heavily plot driven and I think you could argue that the visuals tend towards a "slick coolness" of advertising rather than trying to make maximum emotional impact.

That is playing devils advocate quite a bit as I do love Heat and Collateral.

"Impersonal" is probably a good word for it.

 

[faustian]

When did I call anything cartoonish? And what scene are you talking about, the conversation between Neil and Vincent?

- I was referring to the bank heist scene which is widely acclaimed as the film's crowning scene and is the one in which you seemed to find the most nits to pick

I never said anything bad about that scene. It's great.

As for it being one of the greatest crime films of all time, it's one of the greatest specifically because everything else in the film is so damn strong that it can thrive even without a strong emotional core.

Again, I disagree. The emotional core is the movie. Not shoot em up action scenes. For such a technical movie that portrays its characters as emotionless, they are all victims to their emotions

To be fair, the wording in my original statement may be a little too strong. It's not really that I didn't give a shit about the characters, it's more that when I watch the movie I am frustrated that I don't care MORE. I'm a guy who doesn't mind shedding a tear during a movie but Heat just doesn't activate my emotional receptors in that way.

Fair enough. I just contend that you may be missing some of the emotion Mann so brilliantly embedded in virtually ever scene of importance

Neil breaking position to rush out and save his fallen brother Chris in the middle off a firefight?

For instance, with a lot of movies, during a scene like the one where Vincent finds his step-daughter in the bath tub I might be inclined to get the ol' watery eyes, but this doesn't happen for me in Heat.

Emotion wasn't the intent of that scene. That scene was supposed to show the shit Vincent was dealing with "my life is a disaster zone"

There's a cookie-cutter way to address emotion in movies and then there's the way Michael Mann did it in HEAT

 

[faustian]

I always found it odd that such a professional would take his eyes off Waingro just because he had to wait a second. Seems incredibly unlike his character.

Well his gun was drawn so would you rather have a gun drawn without knowing your surroundings (cops) or would you check your (cops) surroundings?

 

[Guestx]

- I was referring to the bank heist scene which is widely acclaimed as the film's crowning scene and is the one in which you seemed to find the most nits to pick

That's the third strange thing you said. Are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else?

In the OP, which you quoted, I called the shootout "genuinely thrilling"--and then posted a gif from that scene--and then followed that up by saying that "technically, the movie is nearly perfect."

The only thing I questioned about the shootout was whether or not, in real life, detectives would actually engage in a huge shootout like that in such a populated area, with a high probability of collateral damage, rather than let the thieves escape. After all, police departments don't want a bunch of dead civilians on their hands when the only thing at stake was money.

Again, I disagree. The emotional core is the movie. Not shoot em up action scenes. For such a technical movie that portrays its characters as emotionless, they are all victims to their emotions.

Fair enough. I just contend that you may be missing some of the emotion Mann so brilliantly embedded in virtually ever scene of importance

Neil breaking position to rush out and save his fallen brother Chris in the middle off a firefight?

Really, for me at least, I think the issue at hand here is Michael Mann's style. You could probably hand this script to a different director and the film he makes would have a very different feel to it.

@moreorless87, just a few posts up, referred to Michael Mann's style as "impersonal." I think that's a good way to put it, and he and I aren't the only ones that have noticed this.

It's not just Heat either. Having recently watched Manhunter and Collateral as well, I can tell you that those films are the same way.

Again, of course, you may feel differently.

Emotion wasn't the intent of that scene. That scene was supposed to show the shit Vincent was dealing with "my life is a disaster zone"

There's a cookie-cutter way to address emotion in movies and then there's the way Michael Mann did it in HEAT

Any scene in which a teenage girl is floating in a bathtub and on the brink of death, because she feels like her life is so shitty that suicide is the best option, should elicit some emotion in the viewer.

 

[Halge]

It's the Blade Runner of heist movies.

 

[faustian]

That's the third strange thing you said. Are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else?

In the OP, which you quoted, I called the shootout "genuinely thrilling"--and then posted a gif from that scene--and then followed that up by saying that "technically, the movie is nearly perfect."

The only thing I questioned about the shootout was whether or not, in real life, detectives would actually engage in a huge shootout like that in such a populated area, with a high probability of collateral damage, rather than let the thieves escape. After all, police departments don't want a bunch of dead civilians on their hands when the only thing at stake was money.

I'm watching the movie as I'm having this discussion so forgive me if I don't have your critiques in exact order post-wise. And yes we went back and forth about whether the shootout was realistic so that stood out

Really, for me at least, I think the issue at hand here is Michael Mann's style. You could probably hand this script to a different director and the film he makes would have a very different feel to it.

@moreorless87, just a few posts up, referred to Michael Mann's style as "impersonal." I think that's a good way to put it, and he and I aren't the only ones that have noticed this.

It's not just Heat either. Having recently watched Manhunter and Collateral as well, I can tell you that those films are the same way.

Again, of course, you may feel differently.

That's fair enough

But as a movie fan I'd only ask you do yourself the service of paying a bit more attention to Mann's movies. He's a stickler for detail and authenticy that you'll rarely find elsewhere

Any scene in which a teenage girl is floating in a bathtub and on the brink of death, because she feels like her life is so shitty that suicide is the best option, should elicit some emotion in the viewer.

Not all tragedy is emotional

 

[Guestx]

But as a movie fan I'd only ask you do yourself the service of paying a bit more attention to Mann's movies. He's a stickler for detail and authenticy that you'll rarely find elsewhere.

I've watched nearly every film he's made and, funny enough, I actually have Miami Vice paused at the beginning so that I can reply to a few posts.

I think Mann is an interesting filmmaker and I've seen nearly every film he's made. Most of his earlier work I enjoy. His last three films have been kind of shitty.

Not all tragedy is emotional

I would argue that perhaps it should be. It is tragedy, after all. As human beings, we should probably feel something when faced with it.

 

[faustian]

I've watched nearly every film he's made and, funny enough, I actually have Miami Vice paused at the beginning so that I can reply to a few posts.

I think Mann is an interesting filmmaker and I've seen nearly every film he's made. Most of his earlier work I enjoy. His last three films have been kind of shitty.



I would argue that perhaps it should be. It is tragedy, after all. As human beings, we should probably feel something when faced with it.

Look tbh, I took issue with plothole complaints and then railed against posters' personal preferences of how movies should be made lol

To end this, and as the biggest HEAT fan you'll ever find, I issue a legit plothole: once they robbed the FDIC insured bank, the FBI or some other Fed Gov LEO agency should've probably taken over jurisdiction of the case as it now becomes a federal case. That was never addressed and I've literally never heard anyone bring it up. Would've completely ruined the dramatic Neil/Vincent ending

 

[Guestx]

. . .as the biggest HEAT fan you'll ever find. . .

@Peteyandjia, a challenger appears. . .

To end this, and as the biggest HEAT fan you'll ever find, I issue a legit plothole: once they robbed the FDIC insured bank, the FBI or some other Fed Gov LEO agency should've probably taken over jurisdiction of the case as it now becomes a federal issue. That was never addressed and I've literally never heard anyone bring it up. Would've completely ruined the dramatic Neil/Vincent ending

Hmm, that's interesting. I don't think that's something the average viewer would even know about.

 

[ToxicShocker]

 

[faustian]

@Peteyandjia, a challenger appears. . .



Hmm, that's interesting. I don't think that's something the average viewer would even know about.

Yeh, it's a very explicit plothole

Neil: "We want to hurt no one. We're here for the bank's money, not your money. Your money is insured by the federal government, you're not gonna lose a dime. Think of your families, don't risk your life. Don't try and be a hero."

 

[HaulParris]

Great movie. A bit misogynystic in retrospect.

 

[aldeniro78]

It’s my favorite movie of all time.

 

[therealdope]

Vanessa Marcil forever y0.

Con Air, The Rock, and Broken Arrow all came out within eighteen months of each other. Better times.

As i remember, Broken Arrow is a much better movie that The Rock or Con Air. The later two were targeted or the avg slob and forgettable, while Broken Arrow was a classic. I haven't seen any of these in many years but I remember Broken Arrow being much different.

 

[Spoken]

rewatched this last week cuz of this thread.

Man, what a great fuckin movie

 

[Spoken]

I did enjoy The Town a lot and would say it's a little better movie than Den of Thieves.

I think I ended up giving Den of Thieves a 7.5. It's not a masterpiece, but it is a well-made crime thriller and Gerard Butler gives an excellent performance.

it wasnt bad, huh? I quite liked the town, and felt that, in the mold of Heat, it had real human elements that made it a fun movie. I dont have the new Affleck stuff at all, really.

 

[Guestx]

it wasnt bad, huh? I quite liked the town, and felt that, in the mold of Heat, it had real human elements that made it a fun movie. I dont have the new Affleck stuff at all, really.

If you're asking about Den of Thieves, yeah, it wasn't bad. Kind of a sleeper hit, actually. I went into it not expecting much and ended up being pleasantly surprised. Apparently it's performed well enough at the box office to get a sequel as well.

As for The Town, I definitely liked it. I've only seen it once, and remember feeling like the ending was maybe a little weak, but overall I thought it was a solid movie.

Affleck doing The Town and Argo back-to-back really got me on his side. It's a shame that Live By Night derailed his directing career a bit. Even if you're an Oscar winner, one flop can get people looking sideways at you.

 

[Spoken]

If you're asking about Den of Thieves, yeah, it wasn't bad. Kind of a sleeper hit, actually. I went into it not expecting much and ended up being pleasantly surprised. Apparently it's performed well enough at the box office to get a sequel as well.

As for The Town, I definitely liked it. I've only seen it once, and remember feeling like the ending was maybe a little weak, but overall I thought it was a solid movie.

Affleck doing The Town and Argo back-to-back really got me on his side. It's a shame that Live By Night derailed his directing career a bit. Even if you're an Oscar winner, one flop can get people looking sideways at you.

Have you seen Gone Baby Gone?

 

[Guestx]

Have you seen Gone Baby Gone?

I did, and now I barely remember it, but I remember being unimpressed and not understanding all the hype.