I don't think it's fair to use PED's as metric to rule out GOAT candidacy.

[screaminleeman]

I wonder if it's more about him fucking up cycling the shit not so much what he took. You'd think he'd easily have access to the best PEDs considering his bros are NFL players. Jones is good at making poor decisions lol. But i can see what you said being right too, blowing all his money on quality coke but skimping on the PEDS maybe.

Keep in mind, and I will ALWAYS defend Arthur to the end, but both of his NFL brothers have had illegal chemical issues also. In Ravens training camp Jon's brother Arthur was such a selfless player the way he treated the kids in autograph sessions, as well as a gentleman in talking with adult fans in camp has made me a fan of his for life. His "good" he did for the communities that he lived in far outweigh the failed PED test that Arthur is now saddled with.
As far a kooky behavior, Chandler walked into a police station buck naked on synthetic MJ the day before he played in the superbowl for the N.E. Patriots.

None of the Jones boys can I say are perfectly clean, but I weigh an individuals accomplishments against their failures to judge them fairly. I don't think that Jon is half the "demon" that he is being made out to be.

 

[Aforo88]

If more fighters are using PEDs it's not a success.........

It's irrelevant really, USADA will always be playing catch up and they are not actually stopping PED's just encouraging chemists to create new designer PED's that are more and more harder to test for, it's like an arms race.

The problem with this arms race is, instead of fighters using a PED's with a history of knowledge behind and data on the long term effects, they are becoming guinea pigs for new untested PED's just to gain an edge......... because ultimately their income is tied to their performance........

Fighters should not just be taking PED's they should be taking drugs to protect them from the long term effects of being a fighter, they should be allowed to take PED's that we know the long term effects of.

Imo it can. Lets say USADA causes fighters to micro dose with fast acting test and peptides only in cases where they feel their about to overtrain and they never show up to fight night with PEDs in their system opposed to using cycles with super human levels 24/7 giving them insane ammount of workout hrs and gains. I would meassuere USADAs success in the total ammount of PEDs being used and the ammount of fighters that have PEDs in their system at fight night rather than how many person that use. If 10 fighters took 100 mgs of test suspension 3x during their training camp and show up clean on fight night its a success compared to 2 fighters using 100 mg of test + hgh for their whole 8 week camp and shows up to fight night with PEDs in their system. If you take the total ammount of PEDs being used the 10 guys together use a lot less than the 2 guys + the 10 guys show up clean on fight night. Thats my personal take anyways.

 

[William Huggins]

Imo it can. Lets say USADA causes fighters to micro dose with fast acting test and peptides only in cases where they feel their about to overtrain and they never show up to fight night with PEDs in their system opposed to using cycles with super human levels 24/7 giving them insane ammount of workout hrs and gains. I would meassuere USADAs success in the total ammount of PEDs being used and the ammount of fighters that have PEDs in their system at fight night rather than how many person that use. If 10 fighters took 100 mgs of test suspension 3x during their training camp and show up clean on fight night its a success compared to 2 fighters using 100 mg of test + hgh for their whole 8 week camp and shows up to fight night with PEDs in their system. If you take the total ammount of PEDs being used the 10 guys together use a lot less than the 2 guys + the 10 guys show up clean on fight night. Thats my personal take anyways.

Who cares, you still have a good chance of meeting someone on fight night with an unfair advantage, like I said it's an arms race, USADA might initially get the numbers down but then they will be back up, once the teams and their chemists work round the system........

 

[tramendous]

For one, anything pre USADA is a completely different standard of testing than what we have now, and those of us in the wise know that are still probably a lot of people getting away with it now.

Post USADA UFC testing was an absolute joke. TRT juicing was actually legal for a long period of time as well.

Pride encouraged PED's ffs.

How are we going to compare a bunch of different era's with different testing standards and just disqualify those getting popped by USADA now?

I let ring accomplishments speak for themselves and Jones/Fedor/GSP/Anderson are all frontrunners. Testing be damned.

its about whether or not they cheated. It has nothing to do with the PEDs themselves. if The org allowed the PEDs , i.e. PRIDE then all is fine. If not and the athlete chose to take them then they deserve to be disqualified from GOAT discussion (unless all their GOAT accomplishments were under an org that allowed them).

 

[Perrichet]

Fair? Why would you want to be fair with confirmed cheaters?

Anderson, Jones etc shouldn’t be on any GOAT list

 

[Migdagen]

I'm new to UFC, and USADA, but if Jones is using stuff that the current fighters are not, then its cheating, and thus this is a pretty stupid thread.

If that's not the case, then my apologies.

You are right, but not everybody IQ is high enough to understand that.
Using PED when everyone else did (Fedor, Anderson) should not tarnish accomplishments during that timeframe. Any win under the current USADA era while using PED should not count.

 

[Aforo88]

Who cares, you still have a good chance of meeting someone on fight night with an unfair advantage, like I said it's an arms race, USADA might initially get the numbers down but then they will be back up, once the teams and their chemists work round the system........

Who cares? If fighters is doping less resulting in a smaller advantage on fight night I would say that its a step in the right direction. U make it seem like its a fact that fighters still have the same advantage post USADA cuz their using other stuff thats gives the them the same effect. I understand u have a black and white understanding of doping. If an anti alcohol campaign resulted in people drinking 1 beer every day insted of 2 botles of whiskey a week I would say its a sucecfull campaign... u would say its not.. cuz their still consuming alcohol, period?!

 

[TUFNewb]

I really don't care about guys who did it a decade ago or did it in pride where it was legal... but if they are still willing to take the risk in USADA era of being caught and derailing their career it just proves to me that they can't compete at a high level without the stuff. That they never could and they don't belong in the GOAT category.

 

[Source]

For one, anything pre USADA is a completely different standard of testing than what we have now, and those of us in the wise know that are still probably a lot of people getting away with it now.

Post USADA UFC testing was an absolute joke. TRT juicing was actually legal for a long period of time as well.

Pride encouraged PED's ffs.

How are we going to compare a bunch of different era's with different testing standards and just disqualify those getting popped by USADA now?

I let ring accomplishments speak for themselves and Jones/Fedor/GSP/Anderson are all frontrunners. Testing be damned.

Considering goat is a completely made up and subjective concept it is completely appropriate to use whatever metrics you choose. There is not now or will there ever be a standard definition or set of criteria. The entire discussion is a complete waste of time.

 

[tenniswhiz]

For one, anything pre USADA is a completely different standard of testing than what we have now, and those of us in the wise know that are still probably a lot of people getting away with it now.

Post USADA UFC testing was an absolute joke. TRT juicing was actually legal for a long period of time as well.

Pride encouraged PED's ffs.

How are we going to compare a bunch of different era's with different testing standards and just disqualify those getting popped by USADA now?

I let ring accomplishments speak for themselves and Jones/Fedor/GSP/Anderson are all frontrunners. Testing be damned.

No, you follow the rules of the organization you’re fighting in.
Very simple.

If you get caught breaking the rules, then it warrants discussion.

 

[William Huggins]

Who cares? If fighters is doping less resulting in a smaller advantage on fight night I would say that its a step in the right direction. U make it seem like its a fact that fighters still have the same advantage post USADA cuz their using other stuff thats gives the them the same effect. I understand u have a black and white understanding of doping. If an anti alcohol campaign resulted in people drinking 1 beer every day insted of 2 botles of whiskey a week I would say its a sucecfull campaign... u would say its not.. cuz their still consuming alcohol, period?!

You didn't read my post did you...........

 

[Aforo88]

You didn't read my post did you...........

I did, and as I understood it youre point is that USADA will always be a step behind because the industry finds new ways to cheat and that athleats basicly is guiny pigs with the new stuff ect. My point is that even though theyre still cheating thers evidence to sugest that their cheating less. Jeff novitsky showed off a graph displaying how the avarege testosterone levels of a UFC fighter has dropped since the program started. U might sugest that the new ways dont boost testosterone and that their at the same time is as effective? Im not a doping expert, but I like to think that the program has had some positive effect in terms of the sheer ammount of stuff and the effectiveness of the stuff being used. Mabey Im wrong and their using gear that cant be detected and is super beneficial.

 

[Mysterio]

I did, and as I understood it youre point is that USADA will always be a step behind because the industry finds new ways to cheat and that athleats basicly is guiny pigs with the new stuff ect. My point is that even though theyre still cheating thers evidence to sugest that their cheating less. Jeff novitsky showed off a graph displaying how the avarege testosterone levels of a UFC fighter has dropped since the program started. U might sugest that the new ways dont boost testosterone and that their at the same time is as effective? Im not a doping expert, but I like to think that the program has had some positive effect in terms of the sheer ammount of stuff and the effectiveness of the stuff being used. Mabey Im wrong and their using gear that cant be detected and is super beneficial.

Testosterone levels don't mean very much when any number of competing hormones actually lower test levels.