Hypertrophy (gaining muscle) with Martial Arts training

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by VanteMMA, May 6, 2017.

  1. VanteMMA Orange Belt

    VanteMMA
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    So I was wondering if anyone has had experience trying to gain muscle mass while continuing their martial arts training.

    Besides needing a ton of calories to get the job done, I want help with how to deal with DOMs.

    Focusing primarily on strength gains earlier, DOMs are less of an issue and I retain most of my mobility and "springyness" (for lack of a better word) for my BJJ and striking sessions.

    When I am doing a more Hypertrophy style training though, I just feel useless in martial arts. My body just doesn't move right with all the soreness.

    On top of that, putting on quality muscle mass takes time.

    How do you deal with continuously being sore and having to learn and practise movements requiring dexterity and agility?
     
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  2. corpse Orange Belt

    corpse
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    when you get used to the new stimuli, soreness will decrease. i never experienced doms as really painful. just push through it in budo style. think about kimura or oyama and then think about yourself ha ha
     
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  3. dsdoubled Purple Belt

    dsdoubled
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    If soreness is that much of an issue you are probably overdoing the lifting by a good amount. The normal type of sore ness would actually be helped by things like hitting the pads and drilling, it shouldn't be so bad you are effected in those activities. Start off with one exercise per bodypart, 3 sets, 2-3 times a week. Do the 10-12 rep range basic muscle building rep range. We all have a finite recuperative ability so better to start small and see how you handle it.
     
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  4. NurseKnuckles My Mom's stronger than you belt

    NurseKnuckles
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    five
     
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  5. j123 Pro Sherdogger 500-0-1

    j123
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    It takes time to build. I've done a bulk routine that has somewhat a BB type approach (PPLx2) and I've had decent success with it supplementing it to my MT/MMA routine.

    Like another poster said, its a new stimuli so you'll feel the DOMS, your body will eventually adjust. Also, if you're on a deficit it'll be tough to recover

    lol, every thread
     
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  6. Chopper Kneed White Belt

    Chopper Kneed
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    Just adjust calories accordingly. The only time i struggled with training around doms, was after hitting legs hard. Hitting squats and deadlifts before my planned rest days helped.

    Edit- "hypertrophy style" training probably isnt what you are after as a fighter either. You will get more benefit and less soreness from a more strength based routine. Mass will still come with the right diet.
     
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  7. MeatPlow Orange Belt

    MeatPlow
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    can you describe your training?
     
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  8. VanteMMA Orange Belt

    VanteMMA
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    Monday - AM - BJJ; PM - Strength training
    Tuesday - AM - Muaythai; PM - BJJ
    Wednesday - AM - Wrestling; PM - Strength training
    Thursday - AM - Muaythai; PM - BJJ
    Fri - AM - Gi; PM - Strength training
    Sat - AM - Muaythai; PM - Wrestling
    Sun - Rest & Recovery

    Sometimes I'll take a day off in the week and hit the mats on sunday for Gi training.

    I'll also substitute a recovery session if I feel beat down for any of the above days.

    For Strength training, I alternate between:

    Workout A (I'm mentioning only my working sets. I ll do a few warm up sets)
    Squats 5 reps X1
    Planche progressions 3 sets
    Front lever progressions 3 sets
    Pull up variations 5X3
    Ring dips 5X3

    Workout B
    Deadlifts 5X1
    Planche progressions 3 sets
    Back lever progressions 3 sets
    Ring rows 10X3
    Pike pushups 5X3

    I was thinking of doing the same routine with the 8 - 12 rep range for a while. The only thing is it just makes me very sore. I suppose I have to just tough it out and get used to the new stimuli.
     
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  9. Chopper Kneed White Belt

    Chopper Kneed
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    So your going to warm up and then do one set of 8-10 squats? If your getting soreness from that then your diet or rest probably isn't up to scratch.
     
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  10. VanteMMA Orange Belt

    VanteMMA
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    No, I'd probably have to do 3 sets for hypertrophy. I am doing one set of 5 to maintain my squat strength since upping it is not a priority at the moment.
     
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  11. Chopper Kneed White Belt

    Chopper Kneed
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    Good strength and mass gains can be had from heavy sets of 5 or under, mass gain is about increasing the load and calories. Some of the biggest strongest powerlifters in the world have never had doms, or trained 8 reps for anything other than accessory work.
     
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  12. MeatPlow Orange Belt

    MeatPlow
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    I'm going to be totally honest with you here. With as much training as you do its going to be hard to gain a lot of lean mass regardless of what path you choose. Although it can be done, its going to be a slow process. Slow is a word that the "I want it now" generation hates to hear. The great thing about slower progression and gains, is the both tend to stick around much longer.

    Here's what I suggest you try. Drop the Wednesday strength training and actually rest that evening, not do more work. I'd rest and do plenty of eating good food and go to bed early. For your training I'd make a lot of changes personally, but what you have as far as lifts and exercises may fit you perfectly. Still, I suggest changing the exercises one of the workout days. I'd choose some exercises that would allow more volume and easier loading progression. As for rep ranges, this is going to upset a lot of people, but I swear I hate sets of 5 reps. Its not that they are bad, its just that people can't see beyond a set of 5. Olympic lifters, Powerlifters, and a bunch others use 5 and below reps, and so do I, but I am not a powerlifter and I don't suspect you are either. I would look to go higher reps for a bit and maybe add a set or two. I have some awesome cycles I am working on right now that I will share later. For the time being here is what I would do.

    Workout A
    Squats- 1 top set of 5 reps, 1 drop set for 8-20 reps
    Planche progressions 3 sets
    Front lever progressions 3 sets
    Pull up variations 5X3, V-Handle Pull Down- 1-2 sets of 10-15 reps to near failure
    Regular dips 5X3, Ring Dips- 1x to form failure

    Workout B
    Deadlifts 1 set of 10 reps
    Planche progressions 3 sets
    Back lever progressions 3 sets
    Prone Row- 2 sets of 6 heavy, 1 drop set for 8-20 reps or 1-2 sets of ring rows to near failure
    Standing or seated Military Press- 2 sets of 6 heavy, Pike pushups-1-2 sets of 10-15 reps to near failure

    Thats the adjustments I would make just by using your set up. Drop your weights back 10-15% and don't push yourself to hard at first, slowly add weight and build into. Try to turn this 5 rep sets into something higher.

    Man, you have got to eat, and not one of these silly fad diets. You have to put away good solid home cooked food. Loads of potatoes, rice, oats, meat, eggs, cheeses, yogurt, good fruits and veggies. With as much as you appear to do you better be looking toward 3-4000 calories easy.

    if you need any more help, feel free to give me a yell.
     
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  13. NurseKnuckles My Mom's stronger than you belt

    NurseKnuckles
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    Solid advice @MeatPlow
    I like the higher rep stuff as well. I like 5's but I do best with 3's and 8's. 5-6 sets of 3s and 4 sets of 8 are my go to for "Strength" and "Size" respectively.
     
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  14. MeatPlow Orange Belt

    MeatPlow
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    me too. I never seem to get anything out of sets of 5 used in the 5x5 manner or mindset. I don't know, can't explain it. Now, I have used them in a 50/20 type routine and they work fine in something like that, but 3-5 sets of 5 reps, me hates.

    I built more power and muscle using 3 sets of 6-12 reps than anything else. Yes, my 1RM went up doing that rep range. Guys are going to have to see that they have options and not paint themselves into a corner that they hate, just because its preached so hard on the internet.
     
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  15. NurseKnuckles My Mom's stronger than you belt

    NurseKnuckles
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    My best results in previous years had come from madcow 5x5. but the 5's always killed me, fucked with my mind too. Don't get me wrong, I made my best gains with that program. However I took the idea of an undulating progression and made my own with a set x rep range that hit the target ranges I needed for both strength and size, gave me active rest (light days), could work around my sporadic training schedule and was more mentally appealing.
     
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  16. Chopper Kneed White Belt

    Chopper Kneed
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    This is a good point. Do you really train that often all year round? After fights i used to train less technique, and focus more on lifting, eating everything, and getting the body right. As fights got closer i would slowly shift focus from weight training to almost 100% skills training.
     
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  17. VanteMMA Orange Belt

    VanteMMA
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    Thank you. I'm going to take my time going through your post. Just to clarify a lot of the martial arts sessions are drill focused. I'm not wailing on a heavy bag for 5 sets of 5 mins so they're not all high intensity. :)

    Presently, I try to keep the high intensity stuff to 2 - 3 times per week plus get in a minimum of 2 and a maximum of 3 strength sessions.

    I also remembering reading about undulated progression, I might look into that again. In any case, I'am going to have a program ready by tomorrrow and start on it on monday.

    EDIT - You know, I started strength training with Strong lifts 5X5, but that kind of volume is unrealistic with Martial arts training. 5X3 is pushing it too when you get to intermediate levels of strength. Unfortunately, after a point, to increase your squat or dead nos. you're going to have to add in a lot of volume. However, this is also the point of diminishing returns for a fighter. I'm keeping it to 5X1 for maintenance. Also it would be interesting to see how adding a few high rep sets will effect me.

    Yes. I do plenty of recovery work. Alot of stretching and mobility work. Alot of unilateral strength work to balance out the muscles worked during martial arts training. The routine I have above is just a template and I do switch things around depending on the need of the hour. Plus it doesn't mention all the accessory work I do, like mobility, rotary cuff work, wrist work.

    I also deload usually after 4 - 6 weeks of training like this. So I'll cut off all high intensity stuff and lift well within my maxes, somewhere between 50 - 75%, low volume.

    When I get closer to a competition, I shift focus more towards conditioning and strength goes completely into maintenance mode. I like to do alot of prehab training and keep the stretching and mobility work going. I am still working on this since I only have a couple of competitions under my belt.
     
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    Last edited: May 27, 2017
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  18. MeatPlow Orange Belt

    MeatPlow
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    Obviously you know its going to take more volume to add some lean muscle mass. There is a key word in your paragraph that I'm learning a lot about and its importance, and that is maintenance. I think cycles that you simply maintain in terms of weight progression may be important for guys that actually do something with their muscle instead of lift or pose.

    You could work with that same idea for gaining some mass too. Put the big lifts in maintenance mode and up the volume with lighter percentage weights for areas you want to increase lean mass in. When I think about it, the only two exercises that affect my mat work are squats and deadlifts. The rest of the work doesn't create the general fatigue that these two bring with them. Just to note here on this discussion, I only push 2 lifts heavy at a time and with the way I set my training up I only do 1 heavy lift per week. At nearly 42 years old it keeps me rolling. It makes cycles generally longer for me but thats a non issue because I'm not peaking for anything.
     
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  19. Thaijitsu612 Green Belt

    Thaijitsu612
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    I would agree that if you are that sore you are over doing it. I am sore from lifting during but usually once I've warmed up its not such an issue it hinders my performance
     
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