How will history remember Chris Kyle?

[Tylerl90]

A legit badass that deserves respect, but also stretched the truth on occasion.

 

[Gandhi]

I think the Bush vendetta makes the most sense to me. I double down on that one because Scott McClellan said in his book that when Bush took office, he said right in the beginning that we were going into Iraq. Like in his first 5 Cabinet meetings. 9/11 was the catalyst that made it possible, but Bush knew what he wanted up front. Everything from that point on was just rationalizing why his dumbass idea made sense.

And to be fair the Clintons support for the concept of “regime change” in Iraq both prior and leading up to the War did us no favors either. The USA felt like it could change the world after the Cold War, Vietnam had been erased by Iraq 1 and other adventures, and after 911 the hawks were itching to show they could impose American order on the world. What a massive fuck up......

 

[irish_thug]

Lol... You poor rube. We all snuck back oil in our Camel Backs and upturned eyelids.

I fucking knew it.

 

[SingerAuto]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned what I believe to be the single biggest reason the US invaded Iraq: straight up war profiteering. Some of the highest ranking officials in the Bush administration (Cheney was the biggest player) were entrenched with Halliburton, who made over $30 billion dollars on the Iraq War thru KBR. The defense contractor sector of our government is potentially the single most corrupt, which is an accomplishment when considering how corrupt the US government is at most levels.

Sadaam was a terrible person, but if the US truly were being altruistic in removing him, we wouldn't suck Saudi dick at every opportunity and allow countries like Qatar, Yemen, etc... to commit human Rights violations regularly. Sadaam also was an integral figure in curbing Islamic terrorism in his region. The rise of Islamic terrorism in that particular region (as opposed to Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc... that basically fund Islamic terrorism) when Sadaam was removed is no coincidence. Again Sadaam was a truly shit person but the Iraqi War was a sham and the fact so many Americans were killed or injured pursuing such a fraudulent endeavor is sad.

 

[snakedafunky]

Iraq was our ally for a while, why do you think we ever got into a pissing match with them in the first place over Kuwait if all we had to do was place nice to ensure continued access?

I am not sold on this BTW. I am not saying I cant be persuaded, but I would have to see a lot more direct lines before I bought this narrative. Oil war for the Koch brothers just seems to much like left CT to me, of course that's not based on me doing a deep dive factually on your claim, but just on what I understand from ME history and theother factors at play.

It was certainly not about terrorism or human rights, on that much I agree.

I just sort of used the Koch brother as an example because they are most prominent oil lobbyist. What I basically mean is big oil and some big finance companies behind that. I just don't know any of other main lobbying guys.

It's not really a CT because that was official US policy I remember this report from the US energy group in the early 2000 not sure when but before the Iraq war.
It was already stated that Saddam was a real threat that could bring volatility to the market.
And that they could not rely on him anymore because he already limited or increased the output however he personally saw fit. Mostly for his agenda. The didn't come out right and said he has to be removed but that was the clear meaning of that.

Like I said before the US oil lobby doesn't care about China or EU getting the oil from Iraq. In fact, that's what they want to happen. So that they don't need to get from the US sources.
Which are in South and North America mostly. What they are worried about the volatility that increases the price or sharply decreases it. That is what they don't want.
And Saddam was already doing that.
The Saudis, for example, didn't want Saddam removed because he was a buffer between them and Iran. But of course, they don't have any real influence compared to the US.

Let me see if I can find the report also that was like 50 pages. I am surprised that doesn't get mention more often in the US. Because that report was used in Germany a lot to justify not going into Iraq a lot. (also Germany also only did for political reasons).
I remember that because I was in favour of the Iraq war at the time and most people were not. But it was always clear that it was a war from the US oil lobby mostly.
Which I think is fine and I glad Saddam is dead. Also in hindsight, it would have been better if he was still alive all things considered.
I was definitely wrong at the time.

Edit ok I found that report or at least I think that is the one :
NVM that appear to be te wrong one.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

So that's what they wanted to get money from, but it was really from the estate? He just needs to drop the suit and move on.

Either way Ventura is such a piece of shit. He's conspiracy theory scum. I have absolutely no respect for him as a man. That's why he can't get a job, not because Chris Kyle says he punched him once in a book.

I don't know where it comes from, but it was the grounds Kyle's lawyer used to get it overturned. Could be that Kyle's lawyer is the lawyer provided by the insurance company.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...er-chris-kyles-estate/?utm_term=.21dcacc528ec

edit: it seems that everyone settled for an undisclosed amount later. The story I read said that it didn't come from Kyle's widow or estate.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

I just sort of used the Koch brother as an example because they are most prominent oil lobbyist. What I basically mean is big oil and some big finance companies behind that. I just don't know any of other main lobbying guys.

It's not really a CT because that was official US policy I remember this report from the US energy group in the early 2000 not sure when but before the Iraq war.
It was already stated that Saddam was a real threat that could bring volatility to the market.
And that they could not rely on him anymore because he already limited or increased the output however he personally saw fit. Mostly for his agenda. The didn't come out right and said he has to be removed but that was the clear meaning of that.

Like I said before the US oil lobby doesn't care about China or EU getting the oil from Iraq. In fact, that's what they want to happen. So that they don't need to get from the US sources.
Which are in South and North America mostly. What they are worried about the volatility that increases the price or sharply decreases it. That is what they don't want.
And Saddam was already doing that.
The Saudis, for example, didn't want Saddam removed because he was a buffer between them and Iran. But of course, they don't have any real influence compared to the US.

Let me see if I can find the report also that was like 50 pages. I am surprised that doesn't get mention more often in the US. Because that report was used in Germany a lot to justify not going into Iraq a lot. (also Germany also only did for political reasons).
I remember that because I was in favour of the Iraq war at the time and most people were not. But it was always clear that it was a war from the US oil lobby mostly.
Which I think is fine and I glad Saddam is dead. Also in hindsight, it would have been better if he was still alive all things considered.
I was definitely wrong at the time.

Edit ok I found that report or at least I think that is the one :
https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML0428/ML042800056.pdf

Can you give the page number of anything about Iraq. That's the report they used to allow fracking and increase US production.

 

[snakedafunky]

Can you give the page number of anything about Iraq. That's the report they used to allow fracking and increase US production.

Sorry, that must have been the wrong report let me see if I can find the correct one.
I am not sure what it was called 100% because that was a time before I spoke English only read it in German.

 

[DoomPatrol]

I don't know where it comes from, but it was the grounds Kyle's lawyer used to get it overturned. Could be that Kyle's lawyer is the lawyer provided by the insurance company.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...er-chris-kyles-estate/?utm_term=.21dcacc528ec

edit: it seems that everyone settled for an undisclosed amount later. The story I read said that it didn't come from Kyle's widow or estate.

It's also crazy to me that he lied about the number of Bronze Stars and Silver Stars. He claimed 2 Silvers when he had 1 and 5 Bronze when he had 3. I mean just how fucking deleted do you have to be to lie about that? Those are literally public records. Being awarded just one of those is literally an insane honor. Something was obviously wrong with this man, like obsessive compulsive lying. It's just crazy that he's gotten so much love. He was a great sniper, but obviously not a good role model of any sort. So kudos for his accomplishments but let's not make him out to be some hero. I was in Iraq. Nothing heroic about anything we did there.

 

[sub_thug]

hi sub_thug, good to see you today,

that's one way of looking at it.

a different perspective would be this; we spent around 800 billion in Vietnam (adjusted for inflation). our twin adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan have tallied 2.4 trillion (this is one of the lower estimates), and the meter is still running.

US military doctrine is till based on the overwhelming application of force, but not necessarily manpower.

- IGIT

Hi there, IGIT! Good to see you as well.

I don't think those numbers tell a complete story, however. For one, Vietnam was mostly (used because "advisers" were there prior to these years) fought from 1965-1973 with a military full of draftees, whereas Iraq was mostly fought from 2003-2011 and Afghanistan was fought from 2001-Present, both of with an all-volunteer force. That's a much longer period for fighting two wars. We also have a bunch of capabilities that they didn't have back then, such as night vision/infrared for most troopers, NSA teams that are targeting the cell phones of the bad guys so that we could execute kinetic operations, drone warfare, advancements in troop mobility like the MRAP (Vietnam was well-known for being a war where you had to walk or ride a helicopter to get where you were going), body armor for everyone, cultural training for troops, much more advanced special operations capabilities, Civil Affairs capabilities, military cyber teams, and others. With all these changes, the cost per trooper and the cost of support capabilities (like the NSA teams and drones) goes up significantly. Plus, we get paid a little better than they did back then, something that helps us attract and retain better talent.

As a member of this military, I can't say that we are based on the overwhelming application of force. What 17 years of counterinsurgency operations has taught us is that we have to strike the balance between applying said overwhelming force to accomplish military objectives, minimizing collateral damage so as to not estrange to local population, and not things that disrupt the government as well (sometimes, missions might be called off because the well-known terrorist leader is the cousin of a member of the Afghan Parliament, and if we piss him off by killing his cousin, the government of Afghanistan might cooperate with us a lot less). Warfare has become increasingly political, and it's much more about being a scalpel than being a sledgehammer like we are probably better-structured for. We are still learning and adapting at the speed of bureaucracy (partly because of Force Generation concerns, institutional resistance to dramatic change, and a reliance on the annual NDAA for funding and authorization for these changes), but we are better adjusted to these new roles than we were in 2003 (yet we still have to maintain the capability to fight large-scale conflicts against traditional nation-state forces. As you can see, the complexity of the environment is infinitely higher than it once was, and I think that explains the changes to both the doctrine as well as the spending.

-Sub_thug

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Sorry, that must have been the wrong report let me see if I can find the correct one.
I am not sure what it was called 100% because that was a time before I spoke English only read it in German.

No Problem, just didn't want to go through 100+ pages

 

[sub_thug]

It's also crazy to me that he lied about the number of Bronze Stars and Silver Stars. He claimed 2 Silvers when he had 1 and 5 Bronze when he had 3. I mean just how fucking deleted do you have to be to lie about that? Those are literally public records. Being awarded just one of those is literally an insane honor. Something was obviously wrong with this man, like obsessive compulsive lying. It's just crazy that he's gotten so much love. He was a great sniper, but obviously not a good role model of any sort. So kudos for his accomplishments but let's not make him out to be some hero. I was in Iraq. Nothing heroic about anything we did there.

It's a bummer that you feel this way. Any particular reason?

 

[PainIsLIfe]

It's also crazy to me that he lied about the number of Bronze Stars and Silver Stars. He claimed 2 Silvers when he had 1 and 5 Bronze when he had 3. I mean just how fucking deleted do you have to be to lie about that? Those are literally public records. Being awarded just one of those is literally an insane honor. Something was obviously wrong with this man, like obsessive compulsive lying. It's just crazy that he's gotten so much love. He was a great sniper, but obviously not a good role model of any sort. So kudos for his accomplishments but let's not make him out to be some hero. I was in Iraq. Nothing heroic about anything we did there.

If you read his bio it says that his original DD 214 listed him as having those. [it actually listed 6 bronze] The Dept of Navy updated his jacket in 2016 and corrected it.

On July 8, 2016, the U.S. Navy corrected Kyle's DD Form 214 regarding some decorations listed on his original discharge document.[22] The original discharge papers issued to him upon leaving the service (a DD-214) tally with his account given in his autobiography, of two Silver Stars and five Bronze Stars with valor. The Navy revised it to one Silver Star and four Bronze Stars with valor.[22] The Navy said "Kyle would have played no role in the production of his personnel files other than signing the DD-214 upon his discharge" and "[a]fter thoroughly reviewing all available records, the Navy determined an error was made" and "issued a corrected copy of the DD214, which accurately reflects Kyle's years of honorable and extraordinary service."
​

BTW, it was 4 bronze.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/american-sniper-chris-kyle-earned-silver-star-navy/story?id=40447927

 

[IGIT]

We also have a bunch of capabilities that they didn't have back then, such as night vision/infrared for most troopers, NSA teams that are targeting the cell phones of the bad guys so that we could execute kinetic operations, drone warfare, advancements in troop mobility like the MRAP (Vietnam was well-known for being a war where you had to walk or ride a helicopter to get where you were going), body armor for everyone, cultural training for troops, much more advanced special operations capabilities, Civil Affairs capabilities, military cyber teams, and others. With all these changes, the cost per trooper and the cost of support capabilities (like the NSA teams and drones) goes up significantly.

yep!

when i said that the US military still follows the dogma of deploying maximum force concentration, it no longer does so with just boots on the ground - this is what i was referring to. maximum force can also mean the brute force application of technology...expensive technology.

i was just pointing out that its probably a little inaccurate to purely measure the cost of war in blood lost. we're talking about trillions of dollars, afterall.

*salutes*

- IGIT

 

[luckyshot]

I’ll always remember him as the guy Wes Sims bit.

 

[DoomPatrol]

It's a bummer that you feel this way. Any particular reason?

There's a few things that I would rather not get into in public, but I just don't see what good I did.

We got rid of Saddam and caused a decade long conflict from destabilising the region. There were never any WMDs. We fucking destroyed everything and abandoned it to ISIS. Every single person I met over there who was worth a shit is dead now. They were killed by the people we essentially just let take reign of the country.

I just don't feel good about anything that I did over there. The people we replaced Saddam with don't seem any better.

We kicked ass and and left while I lost friends for what seems like nothing.

 

[DoomPatrol]

If you read his bio it says that his original DD 214 listed him as having those. [it actually listed 6 bronze] The Dept of Navy updated his jacket in 2016 and corrected it.

On July 8, 2016, the U.S. Navy corrected Kyle's DD Form 214 regarding some decorations listed on his original discharge document.[22] The original discharge papers issued to him upon leaving the service (a DD-214) tally with his account given in his autobiography, of two Silver Stars and five Bronze Stars with valor. The Navy revised it to one Silver Star and four Bronze Stars with valor.[22] The Navy said "Kyle would have played no role in the production of his personnel files other than signing the DD-214 upon his discharge" and "[a]fter thoroughly reviewing all available records, the Navy determined an error was made" and "issued a corrected copy of the DD214, which accurately reflects Kyle's years of honorable and extraordinary service."
​

BTW, it was 4 bronze.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/american-sniper-chris-kyle-earned-silver-star-navy/story?id=40447927

I just don't get why he would lie when he's already rocking an incredibly honorable amount of medals and awards. That's like Michael Jordan saying he won 9 NBA championship rings instead of the 6 he actually had in an autobiography. Its crazy

 

[PainIsLIfe]

I just don't get why he would lie when he's already rocking an incredibly honorable amount of medals and awards. That's like Michael Jordan saying he won 9 NBA championship rings instead of the 6 he actually had in an autobiography. Its crazy

I'd say part of it was encouraged by his publisher - not that it excuses it - but I'm sure they looked at his DD 214 and said we're promoting this as a 2x silver star author and he said sure why not.

 

[BillytheFish]

When I asked Iraqis I worked with what they thought after the 2003 invasion.

"First, we had only one snake, now we have many snakes to worry about"

 

[IGIT]

I'd say part of it was encouraged by his publisher - not that it excuses it - but I'm sure they looked at his DD 214 and said we're promoting this as a 2x silver star author and he said sure why not.

hi PainIsLife,

i would hope that Kyle saw the error, and sheepishly just went along with it with some prodding from his publisher, like you said.

i'd hate to think he happily went along with it, and promoted this fictive account of his valor. i'm not in the military, but there seems (to me) to be something really dishonorable about lying about awards and decorations from one's military service.

- IGIT