How to learn MT and without losing your boxing skills?

[Kenjamito]

I'm excited to head into my first MT experience tonight. I'm interested in being more of a martial artist, but I am not attracted to grappling really, so I thought I'd see if I take to the MT world. I take a lot of pride in my boxing and I'd like to maintain what I have. I know MT has a different stance that would be susceptible under boxing rules, but I'm not sure what else MT does that takes away from boxing. I know that boxing helps in MT competition, so I'm wondering if I should spend a few days at the MT gym and then one or two days in a straight boxing gym to keep up those skills.

I take my training really seriously, but at 32 years old I'm not trying to oversell myself. I think my goal at this point is to work my way into a proficient standup striking sparring partner for local light heavyweight and heavyweight MMA guys that I want to support. I got this idea after a gym owner I appreciate asked if I'd help his big heavyweight amateur prospect that just got KTFO. I thought I'd switch to a more supportive role for younger guys who really want to do it. I've seen some amateur MT fights out here and I was stunned at how bad the boxing was, I was thinking it would be go in there and check kicks and just put it on them with the hands (yea, I know punches aren't worth as many points in MT -- looks like fun though!)

 

[Bekim]

I think you need to lay off the coffee for a while.......or are you drinking them Muay Thai energy drinks that Shincheck keeps pushing

 

[ARIZE]

I was thinking it would be go in there and check kicks and just put it on them with the hands

I think you don't realize how different MT is to boxing. If you underestimate it, and go with the wrong attitude, you might get hurt.
You just think that all you have to do is to check the kicks? (and even that, I guarantee you, it's not something you will be able to do)

 

[DaGenius]

I think you don't realize how different MT is to boxing. If you underestimate it, and go with the wrong attitude, you might get hurt.
You just think that all you have to do is to check the kicks? (and even that, I guarantee you, it's not something you will be able to do)

You totally saved me time by posting this very excellent answer.

For the record I went the opposite way and started in Muay Thai for many years then did western boxing to improve hands

 

[freaky]

Your head movement will need to be more subtle. Don't duck too low or you will eat knees.

MT is mostly block and counter. Not so much dodging. The most you will see is the rock back. That's not to say there's no head movements. There definitely is but it's not as exaggerated as in boxing. You will definitely own everyone if you stay in the pocket. Otherwise, you will need crutches after eating so many leg kicks.

The hardest you will notice in the beginning is the stance change. Keep us posted especially when you spar.

 

[Fire of Youth]

Your head movement will need to be more subtle. Don't duck too low or you will eat knees.

I have been told this many times over the years and for the most part it is bull shit. The reason is, that you are fighting out of a lower stance whilst bobbing and weaving, you are not without any defence to the knee to the face. Your hands are still in a good position to parry any knee or catch it down. Subtle head movement around the knee strike also puts you in a very good position to counter back by taking their balance thus setting up for some good hits. Also, from that lowered perspective, the changes in levels (e.g. knees to body and knees to face) are not so different. This makes it easier to perceive and faster to react to. Saying "don't duck to low or you will eat knees" is like saying "don't fight out of a low guard or you will get hit in the face" or "don't kick or leg will get caught". There is a risk with every martial movement, defensive and offensive, but the overall system will still have ways to deal with it (e.g. spiking the knee).

 

[rmongler]

How to learn MT and without losing your boxing skills?

Striking with the hands becomes more important when using or preventing TDs.

Therefore, full contact Sumo rules is the truth and the way.

 

[ARIZE]

@Fire of Youth

It's not dangerous just against the knees...
-Every high kick become easier to throw, and more powerful. To weave into a mid roundhouse will do a lot more damage.
-Also, been in a low heavy stance like that make's it a lot harder to check.
-Coming low in the clinch is another big disadvantage to have.
-Your kicks are slower and more telegraphed.
-And for the knees, it's not something i would like to risk against by trying to evade them with "Subtle head movement".
I prefer to keep my head as far away from his knees/feet as possible.

Head movement from boxing is a good supplement to have, but only if you adapt it to MT. Some slips to punches, but no bob and weave, no ducking low etc...

 

[AndyMaBobs]

In truth on head movement, the uppercut is more dangerous than any knee strike, not because its as devstating, but because it's quicker and far easier to set up. I wouldn't recommend ducking in super low to the point you're almost squatting like some boxers do, but the idea that you shouldn't weave under punches in muay thai is a myth and it's always been a myth. In fact most high level muay thai fighters have done it at some point or another.

I was talking with @Sinister and @Sano about something similar before and we found that a lot of top muay thai fighters also sit in the "half crouch", like Sangmanee, Pakorn and Pornsaneh and such, they don't frequently eat knees to the face either.

 

[Kenjamito]

Who are some good fighters to watch when you're a beginner?

 

[Fire of Youth]

@Fire of Youth

It's not dangerous just against the knees...
-Every high kick become easier to throw, and more powerful. To weave into a mid roundhouse will do a lot more damage.
-Also, been in a low heavy stance like that make's it a lot harder to check.
-Coming low in the clinch is another big disadvantage to have.
-Your kicks are slower and more telegraphed.
-And for the knees, it's not something i would like to risk against by trying to evade them with "Subtle head movement".
I prefer to keep my head as far away from his knees/feet as possible.

Head movement from boxing is a good supplement to have, but only if you adapt it to MT. Some slips to punches, but no bob and weave, no ducking low etc...

To reply:
1) Every high kick is easier to throw and more powerful and from further range against someone in a low stance. However, those same high kicks are easier to see, faster to react to, easier to defend. Weaving into a mid level roundhouse is not fun if everything else is equal. However, weaving into that same kick with a jam/elbow spike will take more sting off the kick than a standard check because you are getting to it before the maximum point of force is reached. Many Muay Thai fighters defend against kicks this way and is also the perfect position to catch a kick. Furthermore, after jamming/spiking/catching a kick like this (i.e. coming inside the arc), you are also ina perfectly grounded position to launch any counter you want (e.g. uppercut, leg kick, elbow). Assuming that someone weaves without any knowledge of how to implement that same defense against a muay thai fighter, then you are exactly right. However, it doesn't take much to learn the positional advantages of defending in this way.

2) Being in a low heavy stance does make it harder to check. This isn't too bad for mid and high kicks, as explained in point 1. But that doesn't really help you check leg kicks. Leg kicks are the bane of someone who fights out of a low stance. From what I have seen, those fighters usually turn their knee into the strike and let their structure take the brunt of the strike. Still no fun but you can still function after the defense and throw your own counter.

3) Coming in low to a clinch can be very advantageous. Think about it; clinching is about off balancing your opponent so they are not only open to a strike but don't have the positioning to absorb it. Being low makes you more balanced, your structure stronger thus harder to break, and allows you to get your point of balance under theirs and lift. A very good defence to a clinch is lower your weight, get your feet underneath you, and push their elbows up as you stand. It takes their balance and suddenly you are controlling the clinch. Try it. It works.

4) Kicking out of a low stance is slower and more telegraphed but it is also more powerful because you are driving your body weight from the ground into your target. Kicking the legs is just as fast though and you still get the increased power benefit.

5) If you fear the knee more so than any other strike, then by all means fight out of a taller stance and defend your range. We all have our own style of how to react to any situation and I am by no means saying that fighting out of a low stance is superior. I am merely saying that the lower stance still has a variety of tools to deal with any attack and an over-simplified statement, like "don't go low or you will eat a knee to the face" is erroneous. Personally, I like to counter with punches and leg kicks more than I fear head kicks or knees. It works for me and for many others, but it isn't going to apply to everyone.

 

[sourdiesel209]

You could try to find a middle ground between your boxing stance and a MT stance, with your hips on a 45 degree angle instead of fully sideways and standing a little taller than a boxer so you can check leg kicks effectively. You also gotta vary a bit if your standing taller or lower depending on whenever your on kicking or punching range. At the lowest amateur level you may find success only with your hands if you learn how to check but as you go higher your lack of kicks/clinch game will be problematic.

 

[ARIZE]

@Fire of Youth

1)

High kicks: I don't understand why they would be "easier to see, faster to react to, easier to defend". You make the kick easier by not having it to be as high as usual. So since the kick is easier to do, it's also faster and more powerful...

Mid kicks: I am one of those people who are against the notion of blocking mid kicks with the arms. I understand that some people are ok with it, and even use it efficiently, but if we talk pure MT, it's not the rule, but the exceptions. When you learn basics, the defense to mid kick is simple : check. In KB it may be different, specially since blocking kicks with the arms doesn't give points to the opponent, but even there, switch hard kicks to the arms is a regular strategy against heavy punchers (buakaw vs zambidis)

2)

For low kicks, you can turn the knee into the strike and bend your knee, so the angle of your thighs is in a way that a 90° low kick wont do as much damage, and the leg might "slide" up to the hip, making a catch possible without reaching down low. (again, Zambidis did that a lot in KB). But it's kinda easy for the opponent to adjust and make a downward low kick.
As you said, it's not the best option.

3)

I fully (but respectfully) disagree. The only way to be in a good position in the MT clinch (when both fighter know what to do), is to have your hips close to your opponent and be on the ball of your feet. If you have a low stance entering it, you either have your knees bend or your waist bend. In both of those cases, if the opponent has a hold of your head, he needs a lot less power to make you bend your face forward and low (into a knee).
Yes, having low stance make its harder for him to make me move my feet, (and trip) but a lot easier to make me bend at the waist.
For the option to go low and suddenly "pop" up, is not something i have tried, (i will) but it seems too risky.

4)

Since it's not something i do, i can't tell you about that. I would have to train it a lot that way, to be able to compare it with my "regular" kick.

5)

I am not saying that a low stance won't work in MT. But it's an exception, not a rule. And in my opinion, to be good with a "exceptional"" style, (in any sport) is for "exceptional" people. Roy Jones Jr in boxing for example.



But, i am also in favor of having fun... so if the style you have is making you enjoy the sport, don't listen to people like me, and do what you want. Just be sure to master the basics first, and then go crazy...

 

[AndyMaBobs]

@Fire of Youth

3)

I fully (but respectfully) disagree. The only way to be in a good position in the MT clinch (when both fighter know what to do), is to have your hips close to your opponent and be on the ball of your feet. If you have a low stance entering it, you either have your knees bend or your waist bend. In both of those cases, if the opponent has a hold of your head, he needs a lot less power to make you bend your face forward and low (into a knee).
Yes, having low stance make its harder for him to make me move my feet, (and trip) but a lot easier to make me bend at the waist.
For the option to go low and suddenly "pop" up, is not something i have tried, (i will) but it seems too risky.

Gotta say I particularly disagree with this part. While having space between your opponent and yourself in the clinch is risky or the sake of knees, there are a lot of benefits to being the lower guy.

I'm a short guy (under 6 feet) but I excel in the clinch (hopefully that doesn't sound big headed). While I also train in sambo (which also has clinch strikes) I'm of the Rambaa Somdett school of thought with clinching that it should be an agonizing position, rather than just holding, you should be putting pressure, cross facing and much more in the clinch to make it physically hurt. That's how you wear someone out in the clinch. Coming in low works because when someone like Rambaa does it, he's able to control the back of the neck and slot his head under the opponents chin and apply pressure. These positions make it very easy to throw your opponent.

In coming low it is much easier to force your opponents upper body to move backwards, via your hands or your head. I do agree that you should close up that space quickly, but being lower in the clinch isn't a problem. Now that's not to say that it's not beneficial to be a tall clincher, but there are a lot of benefits to coming lower, especially if you're of a similar height to your opponent, there's simply more of you to bore through your opponents jaw (which IS legal).

http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/private-rambaa-somdet-m16-clinch-inside-low-kick

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Who are some good fighters to watch when you're a beginner?

Pornsaneh Sitmonchai. He has made a career out of the basic techniques that you're first taught in muay thai, punches, hard low kicks and combinations.

There are other great fighters like Sam-A and the masses off technicians and body kickers out there, but when you're new to the game, and you're still building technique, I'd recommend Pornsaneh, or any of the great fighters from Sitmonchai gym.





In truth though, I think you'll get even more out of watching them doing padwork:

 

[ARIZE]

To be clear, i am not talking about taller vs shorter opponent, and i am not saying you mustn't create space for strikes. But you do that only when you have obtain dominant position, or at least a balance that wont be compromised.
You can be lower, but you can't have a low stance in the clinch (knees bend).

I agree a 100% with the "make the clinch an agonizing position".

In the gift you posted, at the start, when Sylvie has a good control of the clinch, Rambaa is straight, only the neck is bent. He only allows himself to bend the waist when he obtains a clearly dominant position.
Sylvie has then no control whatsoever on Rambaa. In that situation he can do whatever he likes, he wont be in danger of any strikes or trips... But he established an dominant position...he didn't enter first with a low stance.
If she had a proper grip in his head, the same level of strength, and he was bending his waist low like that, he will be in a bad position to eat knees to the plexus/head.

I don't know if i am clear with what i want to say... If you enter the clinch in a bad position, before establishing dominance or neutrality, you will be in danger. And to enter the clinch with a low stance (knees bend) is in my opinion a very bad idea.

 

[SpawnOfNyarlathotep]

It's not only bobbing and weaving you should be careful of doing (at least if the opponent has decent knees and front kicks), but slips too. In MT the movement to start the right cross is the same as for the right round kick, meaning the shoulder and arm will go forward regardless if it's a kick or a punch. I can't even count the times I've thrown a round kick and the sparring partner thinks it's a cross so he slips right into the kick, amplifying its power.. If you're good at bobbing and weaving and slips and also can see what the opponent is throwing, go for it, otherwise it's best to play safe..

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Oh yeah for sure, I know that, but more my point is that he would intentionally come in low so that he could drive up in his fights, at one point the article says that he would "come in low and then get the opponen low", which is not uncommon to what Fire of Youth was saying, nor what a lot of wrestling teaches you in general.

I don think you're wrong by any means, but I would also say that I think that coming in low and straightening your knees to off balance an opponent is perfectly viable, in that I do it a fair bit, and in purer grappling settings its how you would bump an opponent up for maneuvers like twisting suplexes and the like (some of which are also used in muay thai).

I can understand why it's not for everyone, but I would say that if you're opponent is the same height as you, you have even more to gain from essentially squatting your opponent up, because you have more body to obtain that lift with. I definitely think it works better for someone who benefits a lot from sweeping as opposed to striking.

My clinch game is built and pressure and locks with the knees/elbows, as opposed to the double collar tie and the like. So I tend to prefer going for stuff that emphasizes the wrestling aspect of the clinch, but each to their own of course.

 

[a guy]

Gotta say I particularly disagree with this part. While having space between your opponent and yourself in the clinch is risky or the sake of knees, there are a lot of benefits to being the lower guy.

I'm a short guy (under 6 feet) but I excel in the clinch (hopefully that doesn't sound big headed). While I also train in sambo (which also has clinch strikes) I'm of the Rambaa Somdett school of thought with clinching that it should be an agonizing position, rather than just holding, you should be putting pressure, cross facing and much more in the clinch to make it physically hurt. That's how you wear someone out in the clinch. Coming in low works because when someone like Rambaa does it, he's able to control the back of the neck and slot his head under the opponents chin and apply pressure. These positions make it very easy to throw your opponent.

In coming low it is much easier to force your opponents upper body to move backwards, via your hands or your head. I do agree that you should close up that space quickly, but being lower in the clinch isn't a problem. Now that's not to say that it's not beneficial to be a tall clincher, but there are a lot of benefits to coming lower, especially if you're of a similar height to your opponent, there's simply more of you to bore through your opponents jaw (which IS legal).

http://8limbs.us/muay-thai-thailand/private-rambaa-somdet-m16-clinch-inside-low-kick

Learning to come in low and use your head when clinching also makes it translate to MMA much more effectively, just for the record.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Learning to come in low and use your head when clinching also makes it translate to MMA much more effectively, just for the record.

Yeah, Cain Velasquez comes to mind immediately as a fighter who keeps his head low in order to drive it up... Marcos Maidana also usesdit to cheat and sneakily headbutt people. It has plenty of uses!