How to finish darce when guy turtles and opens arm?

[hamoom]

I have a problem trying to finish the darce when I start to lock the guy up from side control and he turtles.

He'll drop his chest to the mat opening up his trapped arm and sometimes cupping the outside of his thigh. it becomes really difficult to hold my grip and I'll usually switch to something else..

Anyone else have this issue? I haven't seen any good details on beating this.

 

[flikerstance]

rafael mendes has tons of videos on his site covering this

 

[ultimateriley-o]

When I'm dealing with this defense I like to switch to a three-finger grip and pressure him onto his side, then re-shoot my choking arm. Also an option to switch to a Marcelotine from there because his defending hand is currently hugging his thigh.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

If they get that arm wrapped over their leg, the darce goes out the window IMO. There is just not enough leverage to get the shoulder back into the artery. Plus, your own choking arm is open to kimura counters if they roll through. My go-to is switching to a guillotine.

 

[Dogstarman]

You don't have to continue going after the darce. If they counter your darce you need to move to a different technique. Like @ijustwannasurf said, go to the guillotine, if he defends that move back to the darce. Just try different things and see what works.

 

[rmongler]

3/4 nelson, aka the stacker.

 

[Bubblun]

If they get that arm wrapped over their leg, the darce goes out the window IMO. There is just not enough leverage to get the shoulder back into the artery. Plus, your own choking arm is open to kimura counters if they roll through. My go-to is switching to a guillotine.

Is the same defense that is used against the classic arm triangle/katagatame?

I am in need of a good darce counter ASAP.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

could you elaborate on how youre setting up the darce in side control? my instinct is to say that either the darce setup isnt on good enough to begin with and/or that you're not controlling your opponent well enough with your side control.

 

[mataleaos]

could you elaborate on how youre setting up the darce in side control? my instinct is to say that either the darce setup isnt on good enough to begin with and/or that you're not controlling your opponent well enough with your side control.

He's been one of the best darce posters on this forum since the mid 00's so I'm actually surprised he's even asking a question about it. I'm sure his setups and finishes are solid

I have a problem trying to finish the darce when I start to lock the guy up from side control and he turtles.

He'll drop his chest to the mat opening up his trapped arm and sometimes cupping the outside of his thigh. it becomes really difficult to hold my grip and I'll usually switch to something else..

Anyone else have this issue? I haven't seen any good details on beating this.

I think I know the one. There was a guy from Cyborg's academy I think at the no gi worlds a few years ago that did this exact defense against Rafael Lovato Jr and Clark Gracie and they both had to switch the other chokes eventually. They locked up the darce and he went totally face down and even when they slid onto their side and tried to walk towards him to finish, he reached his trapped arm down in between his legs and kept it as straight as possible. A preemptive defense I've seen to this is to sandwich the trapped arm between your legs almost like how Rafa does with his anaconda choke (and darce too but he just doesn't use the darce as much as the anaconda) and even if they turtle and you slide then you can still keep the arm trapped between your legs. And then as you walk towards them to trap their legs it's too late for them to get facedown with their trapped arm down between their legs again.

Does that help?

If they get that arm wrapped over their leg, the darce goes out the window IMO. There is just not enough leverage to get the shoulder back into the artery. Plus, your own choking arm is open to kimura counters if they roll through. My go-to is switching to a guillotine.

Have you tried using your body-side leg to step over their arm and pull it out of their legs? Either that or flipping over them onto your hip in a 'marce' finishing position? That will put their arm against the floor and help kill the power of their underhook and gravity will help the floor push your shoulder into their shoulder into their neck.

 

[JagRoss]

He's been one of the best darce posters on this forum since the mid 00's so I'm actually surprised he's even asking a question about it. I'm sure his setups and finishes are solid


I think I know the one. There was a guy from Cyborg's academy I think at the no gi worlds a few years ago that did this exact defense against Rafael Lovato Jr and Clark Gracie and they both had to switch the other chokes eventually. They locked up the darce and he went totally face down and even when they slid onto their side and tried to walk towards him to finish, he reached his trapped arm down in between his legs and kept it as straight as possible. A preemptive defense I've seen to this is to sandwich the trapped arm between your legs almost like how Rafa does with his anaconda choke (and darce too but he just doesn't use the darce as much as the anaconda) and even if they turtle and you slide then you can still keep the arm trapped between your legs. And then as you walk towards them to trap their legs it's too late for them to get facedown with their trapped arm down between their legs again.

Does that help?



Have you tried using your body-side leg to step over their arm and pull it out of their legs? Either that or flipping over them onto your hip in a 'marce' finishing position? That will put their arm against the floor and help kill the power of their underhook and gravity will help the floor push your shoulder into their shoulder into their neck.

Do you have a links to the match(es) you're talking about?

 

[Dogstarman]

Is the same defense that is used against the classic arm triangle/katagatame?

I am in need of a good darce counter ASAP.

The best defense is to not get yourself into that position. Don't push with the top arm when defending the guard pass or trying to make space in side control.

 

[mataleaos]

Do you have a links to the match(es) you're talking about?

Not the Clark one but I found one for the Lovato one.



The whole match is worth watching and the guy's neck is super tough. You can really tell that Lovato Jr is a bad ass because instead of getting deflated at the failed choke attempts he instead flips it mentally and frames it as wearing down the other guy. Champ mentality.

 

[JagRoss]

Not the Clark one but I found one for the Lovato one.



The whole match is worth watching and the guy's neck is super tough. You can really tell that Lovato Jr is a bad ass because instead of getting deflated at the failed choke attempts he instead flips it mentally and frames it as wearing down the other guy. Champ mentality.

Cheers - thanks for taking the time to dig this up.

Good match - really liked the way Lovato was constantly headhunting.
Also a really cool detail on the back take at the end.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

He's been one of the best darce posters on this forum since the mid 00's so I'm actually surprised he's even asking a question about it. I'm sure his setups and finishes are solid

maybe he's great at the darce; i wasnt insulting his abilities. he came with a question and from my point of view, i think more info on how he's setting up his darce could help get an answer...

 

[MaxMMA]

Anytime you can't get your arm in deep enough to finish the d'arce you should be trying to hit that Japanese Neck Tie. Your arm only has to be deep enough in for your hand to be showing on the other side of his neck and you got him.

A very underrated and high percentage choke, great move to hit people with that are trying to underhook you from half guard.

 

[ijustwannasurf]

Is the same defense that is used against the classic arm triangle/katagatame?

I am in need of a good darce counter ASAP.

The mechanics are the same: your arm that is inside the choke wraps around the outside of your same side leg. From the arm triangle, you can rock around a bit to loosen the grip, but your chance to escape will come when they transition towards your back or an arm attack.
Against the darce, I haven't perfected the roll out to sweep/kimura grip. I THINK the best sequence of events is to wrap your leg and get to turtle if you're not already there, then build up so you have room to roll through over your free shoulder. Done correctly, you land on top in reverse kesa with their arm exposed. I don't have the reps to give you a better breakdown. I will say that I feel safe if I can wrap my leg, which if nothing else forces them to switch to a different angle or attack.

Have you tried using your body-side leg to step over their arm and pull it out of their legs? Either that or flipping over them onto your hip in a 'marce' finishing position? That will put their arm against the floor and help kill the power of their underhook and gravity will help the floor push your shoulder into their shoulder into their neck.

I have not, simply because switching my grip to a one arm guillotine and hipping in to mount or finish is one of my most high-percentage moves. Especially at ultra-heavy, I want to keep them on their back as much as possible.

 

[mataleaos]

Anytime you can't get your arm in deep enough to finish the d'arce you should be trying to hit that Japanese Neck Tie. Your arm only has to be deep enough in for your hand to be showing on the other side of his neck and you got him.

A very underrated and high percentage choke, great move to hit people with that are trying to underhook you from half guard.

That's one thing that's always tripped me out about the Japanese necktie though. That criteria actually makes for the perfect brabo choke and going much deeper with the choking arm turns it into more of a crank. With a brabo choke it's cleanest if your thumb is along the back of their neck and you don't have to go any deeper. The Japanese necktie is a fine submission but when people say they can get deep enough for it but not deep enough for the brabo choke it confuses me.

...switching my grip to a one arm guillotine and hipping in to mount or finish is one of my most high-percentage moves. Especially at ultra-heavy, I want to keep them on their back as much as possible.

Nice! That sounds like a great switch

 

[ijustwannasurf]

That's one thing that's always tripped me out about the Japanese necktie though. That criteria actually makes for the perfect brabo choke and going much deeper with the choking arm turns it into more of a crank. With a brabo choke it's cleanest if your thumb is along the back of their neck and you don't have to go any deeper. The Japanese necktie is a fine submission but when people say they can get deep enough for it but not deep enough for the brabo choke it confuses me.

In my opinion, the efficacy of the Japanese Necktie is all about the free arm, not the choking one. If they are stretching out, you can get the gable grip and start reeling their head in for the darce (which we all know can be a struggle to ratchet your free arm into a good position), or you can let your whole body do the work and fold them over with the Necktie.
I do understand your confusion re: the depth of the choking arm, but that is people not really understanding the mechanics of the darce, right? The Japanese Necktie can provide a good option in the chain, but it isn't a substitute for a proper darce squeeze.

 

[MaxMMA]

That's one thing that's always tripped me out about the Japanese necktie though. That criteria actually makes for the perfect brabo choke and going much deeper with the choking arm turns it into more of a crank. With a brabo choke it's cleanest if your thumb is along the back of their neck and you don't have to go any deeper. The Japanese necktie is a fine submission but when people say they can get deep enough for it but not deep enough for the brabo choke it confuses me.



Nice! That sounds like a great switch

Are we talking about the same choke? Brabo=D'arce for me. The difference between the necktie and the brabo is you have to have your arm in as deep as possible for the brabo, where as the necktie you only need to have your arm in deep enough for your forearm to be across their throat.

In my opinion, the efficacy of the Japanese Necktie is all about the free arm, not the choking one. If they are stretching out, you can get the gable grip and start reeling their head in for the darce (which we all know can be a struggle to ratchet your free arm into a good position), or you can let your whole body do the work and fold them over with the Necktie.
I do understand your confusion re: the depth of the choking arm, but that is people not really understanding the mechanics of the darce, right? The Japanese Necktie can provide a good option in the chain, but it isn't a substitute for a proper darce squeeze.

Not really understanding your explanation, the necktie/d'arce. If you shoot for the darce and gable grip you have the "gator bite" which you can use to flop them to their side to finish the necktie, or flop them to their side and shoot the arm deeper to finish the d'ace/brabo.

 

[mataleaos]

In my opinion, the efficacy of the Japanese Necktie is all about the free arm, not the choking one. If they are stretching out, you can get the gable grip and start reeling their head in for the darce (which we all know can be a struggle to ratchet your free arm into a good position), or you can let your whole body do the work and fold them over with the Necktie.
I do understand your confusion re: the depth of the choking arm, but that is people not really understanding the mechanics of the darce, right? The Japanese Necktie can provide a good option in the chain, but it isn't a substitute for a proper darce squeeze.

Great post overall and you're spot on about the bolded.

I think both chokes are misunderstood. Ironically, sometimes even misunderstood by people that are good at them.

I think Ryan Hall still has the best material ever on the brabo/darce choke and I think Robert Drysdale has the best Japanese necktie material but it's not easy to find.

I've seen a ton of material dedicated to the brabo/darce choke since Ryan hall and Jeff Glover released their respective sets in 2012 and I've seen some cool stuff since then but nothing that I'd recommend instead. I think Edwin Najmi will maybe have some cool stuff to offer on his upcoming set. Especially since he's already doing them in his first year at black belt in the gi as deep as the semis of the Mundials and against super tough opposition like Vitor Oliveira or legendary brabo chokers like Bill Cooper.

I've never seen much of Najmi's instruction but I would check out what he's got to show.