How to combat online Cheating

[Cygnus A]

Why cheat? My kid used god mode in a game recently, then stopped playing altogether because it was no longer fun.

 

[moreorless87]

Nothing wrong with backline D. I used to love the tricky rear/side positions like shutdown2 plank or Oppose2k1 T Hall. Unfortunately though one day during a TFL 3a match conc aiming as HW finally clicked and changed everything for me. Despite not really liking HW I ended up being a primary HW for years for many upper-mid and high level teams before ultimately ending up with one of the top NA teams at the time in ( ae. ). By then though the WoW addiction was beginning to set in which started to cause my play to fall off and I ended up vanishing for a couple of years. Really wish I could do that one over. Especially since TF2 never really clicked with me until years later, and back in the early days of STEAM the friends list never worked so I lost contact with a lot of old clanmates.

HW aim whilst conced was another area people got called out for cheating incorrectly, B0wnz(the era of l33t speak) in =BC= had a similar skill and had a lot of accusations made despite us knowing he didn't have the knowledge to hack even if he wanted to .

I do vaguely remember (ae.), most of the trans Atlantic matches were actually quite informal games though with people from various clans taking part like [DW], [UE], [SHS] etc on the euro side. Actually seemed to be quite a different culture in the two areas as well, the European scene sticking mostly to the classic maps or new ones very similar to them with quite confined setups were as the US scene seemed to use a lot of larger maps.

=BC= did actually start up as just a group of newbies who got better together but as people dropped out it naturally turned into more of an allstar group, can't remember exactly but I'd guess I gradually stopped playing much around 2002 when the pressure to win constantly took a lot of the fun out of it, they didn't seem to miss me though. <45>

 

[fatlas]

HW aim whilst conced was another area people got called out for cheating incorrectly, B0wnz(the era of l33t speak) in =BC= had a similar skill and had a lot of accusations made despite us knowing he didn't have the knowledge to hack even if he wanted to .

I do vaguely remember (ae.), most of the trans Atlantic matches were actually quite informal games though with people from various clans taking part like [DW], [UE], [SHS] etc on the euro side. Actually seemed to be quite a different culture in the two areas as well, the European scene sticking mostly to the classic maps or new ones very similar to them with quite confined setups were as the US scene seemed to use a lot of larger maps.

=BC= did actually start up as just a group of newbies who got better together but as people dropped out it naturally turned into more of an allstar group, can't remember exactly but I'd guess I gradually stopped playing much around 2002 when the pressure to win constantly took a lot of the fun out of it, they didn't seem to miss me though. <45>

Conc aiming used to be some mystical thing to a lot of people. It was to me for a while just like bunnyhopping was, but one day just like bunnyhopping it clicked and I ended up getting over 80 kills at the monkey_l front door while being conced for over 15 minutes in each round. Sink or swim is the best way to learn sometimes.

I remember [DW] playing in NA under their own team name for a little bit. I also remember when some great Euros formed !-LEET-! and played for a while during a couple of summers for fun. There was some real crossing over later on though when Team USA and Team Canada were formed and actually made got the opportunity to compete in the ECTFCL. It's crazy seeing eSports now with a truly international scene complete with competition between regions. Back then that shit seemed impossible.

The big difference I always remember between NA and EU was NA favored the two MIRV classes heavily while EU stuck to mostly a soldier/engy only defense. Another difference was how command point maps were played. EU played 8v8 and favored a medic heavy run and gun strat while NA played cp maps 9v9 (with canalzon being 10v10) emphasizing dual HWs mid with soldiers on the wings. The NA strat was proven superior in the Team USA vs Team France scrimmage when USA absolutely demolished France something like 432 - 36 on cz2 in the tiebreaker. And yeah the maps were pretty different and it took a while for some popular European maps to start circulating in NA. Which I was happy for at the time because I was one of the sick fucks that liked shutdown_l and chimkey_l was a great 2fort clone.

 

[moreorless87]

Conc aiming used to be some mystical thing to a lot of people. It was to me for a while just like bunnyhopping was, but one day just like bunnyhopping it clicked and I ended up getting over 80 kills at the monkey_l front door while being conced for over 15 minutes in each round. Sink or swim is the best way to learn sometimes.

I remember [DW] playing in NA under their own team name for a little bit. I also remember when some great Euros formed !-LEET-! and played for a while during a couple of summers for fun. There was some real crossing over later on though when Team USA and Team Canada were formed and actually made got the opportunity to compete in the ECTFCL. It's crazy seeing eSports now with a truly international scene complete with competition between regions. Back then that shit seemed impossible.

The big difference I always remember between NA and EU was NA favored the two MIRV classes heavily while EU stuck to mostly a soldier/engy only defense. Another difference was how command point maps were played. EU played 8v8 and favored a medic heavy run and gun strat while NA played cp maps 9v9 (with canalzon being 10v10) emphasizing dual HWs mid with soldiers on the wings. The NA strat was proven superior in the Team USA vs Team France scrimmage when USA absolutely demolished France something like 432 - 36 on cz2 in the tiebreaker. And yeah the maps were pretty different and it took a while for some popular European maps to start circulating in NA. Which I was happy for at the time because I was one of the sick fucks that liked shutdown_l and chimkey_l was a great 2fort clone.

It was basically down to being able to predict the way the conc "dizzy" motion effected you wasn't it and countering it? I admit I was so much a purist I considered using anything but fov_90 to be cheating.

Yeah I remember !-LEET-!, that was basically an allstar European team that started out doing friendlies at about 3 am our time.

My brother actually designed chimkey(and schtop) specifically to be an alternative to 2fort. Generally I think choice of map had a big effect on the different way the two scenes evolved, all those big open CP maps and indeed playing 9 v 9 generally favoured the US sceen using demomen and HWguys on defence and scouts on offence where as the smaller more enclosed maps and 8 x 8 favoure din Europe ment mostly medics on offence(Afx was quite rare being a specialist scout) and soldiers on defence. I have to admit we looked down on you for that difference, Medic vs Solider deathmatching was considered the "gentlemans sport" and putting a HWguy as a first line of defence most uncouth <45>.

The =BC= highlights video my brother made(after my time) is still up on youtube I see...

 

[fatlas]

It was basically down to being able to predict the way the conc "dizzy" motion effected you wasn't it and countering it? I admit I was so much a purist I considered using anything but fov_90 to be cheating.

Yeah I remember !-LEET-!, that was basically an allstar European team that started out doing friendlies at about 3 am our time.

My brother actually designed chimkey(and schtop) specifically to be an alternative to 2fort. Generally I think choice of map had a big effect on the different way the two scenes evolved, all those big open CP maps and indeed playing 9 v 9 generally favoured the US sceen using demomen and HWguys on defence and scouts on offence where as the smaller more enclosed maps and 8 x 8 favoure din Europe ment mostly medics on offence(Afx was quite rare being a specialist scout) and soldiers on defence. I have to admit we looked down on you for that difference, Medic vs Solider deathmatching was considered the "gentlemans sport" and putting a HWguy as a first line of defence most uncouth <45>.

The =BC= highlights video my brother made(after my time) is still up on youtube I see...

The trick to conc aiming was that there really was no trick. The conc effect is an illusion and conc aiming is really just about being able to maintain your "true aim" while the illusion is in effect.

I didn't realize chimkey and schtop was made by the same person. schtop was such a great map. Once people in NA started trying it out it caught on like wildfire and was played nonstop in pick ups and matches across all leagues in all formats. Though I still don't know how to pronounce the name. Most Americans and Canadians would pronounce it sshtop, but the one British and Swedish player I regularly played with called it sk-top.

I would say NA defenses favored practicality most of all. HWs were valuable in positions where consistent damage was required, enemies could be funneled into them, where a weapon with constant uptime and MIRVs were prized, or when there was a position that had enough open space where the autocannon would be more effective in tracking down and killing targets than the rocket launcher. D demos were utilized in maps where they could be paired off or covered by other defenders on maps that had switches like openfire_l or schtop, or where flag touches could come easy and it was imperative to get quick stops or denials like 2mesa3 and pitfall. There were plenty in NA that admired a lot of EU soldiers and scouts, but at the same time a lot of people thought the EU way of doing things emphasized cleanliness over effectiveness.

And of course the old =BC= avi was going to be up on youtube since it's a classic It even does a good job at showing its age with the song choices. I also recognize several of those names watching it again. When I first got ISDN it was with a lousy ISP that charged hourly after a certain point so for a while I would raid demo sites and just watch demos when I wanted some TFC instead. I used to have a bunch of demos from AphexTwin, Undz, Afx, Ritch, Eagle, and probably -M-, but sadly I lost those with an old dead HDD. Also in retrospect man did that FR soldier on shutdown2 for [DW] have a bad day. Absolutely deserved it though in the first sequence with Life where he doesn't drop down to cover the plank and tries to play it cute.

 

[moreorless87]

The trick to conc aiming was that there really was no trick. The conc effect is an illusion and conc aiming is really just about being able to maintain your "true aim" while the illusion is in effect.

I didn't realize chimkey and schtop was made by the same person. schtop was such a great map. Once people in NA started trying it out it caught on like wildfire and was played nonstop in pick ups and matches across all leagues in all formats. Though I still don't know how to pronounce the name. Most Americans and Canadians would pronounce it sshtop, but the one British and Swedish player I regularly played with called it sk-top.

I would say NA defenses favored practicality most of all. HWs were valuable in positions where consistent damage was required, enemies could be funneled into them, where a weapon with constant uptime and MIRVs were prized, or when there was a position that had enough open space where the autocannon would be more effective in tracking down and killing targets than the rocket launcher. D demos were utilized in maps where they could be paired off or covered by other defenders on maps that had switches like openfire_l or schtop, or where flag touches could come easy and it was imperative to get quick stops or denials like 2mesa3 and pitfall. There were plenty in NA that admired a lot of EU soldiers and scouts, but at the same time a lot of people thought the EU way of doing things emphasized cleanliness over effectiveness.

And of course the old =BC= avi was going to be up on youtube since it's a classic It even does a good job at showing its age with the song choices. I also recognize several of those names watching it again. When I first got ISDN it was with a lousy ISP that charged hourly after a certain point so for a while I would raid demo sites and just watch demos when I wanted some TFC instead. I used to have a bunch of demos from AphexTwin, Undz, Afx, Ritch, Eagle, and probably -M-, but sadly I lost those with an old dead HDD. Also in retrospect man did that FR soldier on shutdown2 for [DW] have a bad day. Absolutely deserved it though in the first sequence with Life where he doesn't drop down to cover the plank and tries to play it cute.

Schtop was named after UK Grolsch beer adds in the early 00's, partly because we had a few dutch players like Life, Eagle and Nar in the group by that point...



There were of course HWguys and Demo's used in the euro scene but they rarely tended to be the first line of defence(the yard in rock2 being an obvious exception), again I think a combination of the maps being played and 8 vs 8 rather than 9 v 9. A more confined map generally made soliders RPG's more effective where as they'd get gunned down by masses of medics from range in the open. Only having 4 people rather than 5 on defence as well meant it was harder to have a demo with a solider to defend him.

I think you can see on that avi that =BC= vs [DW] was the big European grudge match so as many clips of the latter as possible, also a lot of highlights tended to just use games vs lesser teams who were easier to look good against. Again after my time and last line solider defence isn't very highlight worthy but I did suggest those Pvt Huson quotes.

 

[fatlas]

Schtop was named after UK Grolsch beer adds in the early 00's, partly because we had a few dutch players like Life, Eagle and Nar in the group by that point...



There were of course HWguys and Demo's used in the euro scene but they rarely tended to be the first line of defence(the yard in rock2 being an obvious exception), again I think a combination of the maps being played and 8 vs 8 rather than 9 v 9. A more confined map generally made soliders RPG's more effective where as they'd get gunned down by masses of medics from range in the open. Only having 4 people rather than 5 on defence as well meant it was harder to have a demo with a solider to defend him.

I think you can see on that avi that =BC= vs [DW] was the big European judge match so as many clips of the latter as possible, also a lot of highlights tended to just use games vs lesser teams who were easier to look good against. Again after my time and last line solider defence isn't very highlight worthy but I did suggest those Pvt Huson quotes.

I should have known beer was the answer. Beer is always the answer to most of life's mysteries and TFC was most likely no exception.

I remember now how EU kind of stuck it out with a lot of maps that were considered too defense oriented in NA like rock2, shutdown_l, and stowaway. Eventually shutdown_l and stowaway reappeared in leagues once 8v8 started becoming more standard. Just the idea of 9v9 shutdown_l makes me wince. At the same time though I don't remember hearing about EU playing some of the more hectic or wild maps that would show up in NA like torch2, vidars, enclave, darkness, or pitfall or the absurd maps like scrummage, run, or 10v10 canalzon. If EU played things like pitfall or vidars regularly there would have been far more top tier D demos and HWs running around just out of necessity.

=BC= vs [DW] certainly was a high profile match back in the day, but that avi makes it look like you guys just ragdolled them. Which probably was the case since I remember =BC= being pretty terrifying during their run. Also while you might have been a rear line defender, at least you got to start as soldier. A starting HW could occasionally land some of the dullest defensive assignments imaginable, especially outside of top tier play where certain routes couldn't really be utilized by a mid-tier or lower offense.

 

[moreorless87]

I should have known beer was the answer. Beer is always the answer to most of life's mysteries and TFC was most likely no exception.

I remember now how EU kind of stuck it out with a lot of maps that were considered too defense oriented in NA like rock2, shutdown_l, and stowaway. Eventually shutdown_l and stowaway reappeared in leagues once 8v8 started becoming more standard. Just the idea of 9v9 shutdown_l makes me wince. At the same time though I don't remember hearing about EU playing some of the more hectic or wild maps that would show up in NA like torch2, vidars, enclave, darkness, or pitfall or the absurd maps like scrummage, run, or 10v10 canalzon. If EU played things like pitfall or vidars regularly there would have been far more top tier D demos and HWs running around just out of necessity.

=BC= vs [DW] certainly was a high profile match back in the day, but that avi makes it look like you guys just ragdolled them. Which probably was the case since I remember =BC= being pretty terrifying during their run. Also while you might have been a rear line defender, at least you got to start as soldier. A starting HW could occasionally land some of the dullest defensive assignments imaginable, especially outside of top tier play where certain routes couldn't really be utilized by a mid-tier or lower offense.

You could perhaps view it as a reflection of general sporting culture? football/soccer is king in Europe and a lot of those classic maps and the similar new ones even 8 v 8 gave you a similar kind of situation, high scoring was possible but when two elite teams faced off each flag cap was a big affair that could deside a match. The larger US maps it seemed more a case of who could cap the fastest more inlike with stuff like basketball.

There were a few high level demomen in Europe, most obviously Sprucemoose but I think he'd given up or played much less by the time transatlantic matches started happening. He wasn't really your classic US style demoman though, mostly doing a lot of deathmatching using exploding pipe bombs.

In terms of big clans in Europe early on SM. were actually the top guys, I believe a lot of them had played the old quake mod so obviously had a significant advanatge, then [UE] became the top clan with a lot of ultra low ping finnish cable users before [DW] merged with [JMC] and took over then had a lengthy showdown with =BC= were we gradually got ontop, I believe <187> actually took over after both =BC= and [DW] spilt up in 2003. I remember actually probably the more intense fued =BC= ever had was before we got near the top with [TA], I never tended to get directly involved with it but there leader Wildfire had a habit of going a bit crazy. Generally I think having a controlling leader rather than a nominal one didn't tend to turn out well.

 

[fatlas]

You could perhaps view it as a reflection of general sporting culture? football/soccer is king in Europe and a lot of those classic maps and the similar new ones even 8 v 8 gave you a similar kind of situation, high scoring was possible but when two elite teams faced off each flag cap was a big affair that could deside a match. The larger US maps it seemed more a case of who could cap the fastest more inlike with stuff like basketball.

There were a few high level demomen in Europe, most obviously Sprucemoose but I think he'd given up or played much less by the time transatlantic matches started happening. He wasn't really your classic US style demoman though, mostly doing a lot of deathmatching using exploding pipe bombs.

In terms of big clans in Europe early on SM. were actually the top guys, I believe a lot of them had played the old quake mod so obviously had a significant advanatge, then [UE] became the top clan with a lot of ultra low ping finnish cable users before [DW] merged with [JMC] and took over then had a lengthy showdown with =BC= were we gradually got ontop, I believe <187> actually took over after both =BC= and [DW] spilt up in 2003. I remember actually probably the more intense fued =BC= ever had was before we got near the top with [TA], I never tended to get directly involved with it but there leader Wildfire had a habit of going a bit crazy. Generally I think having a controlling leader rather than a nominal one didn't tend to turn out well.

Sporting culture would be the cooler answer, but I'd say NA was just more anything goes right from the start. Demos solidified their place early in the quick det era, and the TF 1.5 patch and the netcode changes that came with it led to more interest in HWs due to them being overbuffed by the changes for a period of time. NA also had many leagues with a variety of formats including 5v5, 6v6, 7v7, 9v9 Highlander, the old OGL Open 9v9 ladder, and ADL later on. So there was a massive amount of map variety and a need for more strats and players that could utilize all the defensive classes. The reason the traditional 8v8 Euro style wasn't really picked up on was because of how much NA favored 9v9 and had a 2 HW limit for most ladders except for the very top which had a 1 HW limit. 5 D with 2 HWs made some of Europe's favorite maps an absolute nightmare to play so they were avoided for a while. As the NA scene matured there was more interest in more 8v8, 1 HW limits, and more classic style maps where 8v8 would flourish.

I certainly remember <|187|> due to the ugly tag and the fact they're a bit closer to 2018 so it's easier to remember them. Also when I was in |s0| we had a British clanmate that actually made it into 187 which was pretty cool. The most I remember about the EU scene other than some major teams are some of the big name players and the ECTFCL. I always wanted to try playing on an EU team since it would have been easy to do since EU played on weekend afternoons for me, but my ping would have been around 170 - 200 if I even dared tried so I held off on it.

 

[moreorless87]

Sporting culture would be the cooler answer, but I'd say NA was just more anything goes right from the start. Demos solidified their place early in the quick det era, and the TF 1.5 patch and the netcode changes that came with it led to more interest in HWs due to them being overbuffed by the changes for a period of time. NA also had many leagues with a variety of formats including 5v5, 6v6, 7v7, 9v9 Highlander, the old OGL Open 9v9 ladder, and ADL later on. So there was a massive amount of map variety and a need for more strats and players that could utilize all the defensive classes. The reason the traditional 8v8 Euro style wasn't really picked up on was because of how much NA favored 9v9 and had a 2 HW limit for most ladders except for the very top which had a 1 HW limit. 5 D with 2 HWs made some of Europe's favorite maps an absolute nightmare to play so they were avoided for a while. As the NA scene matured there was more interest in more 8v8, 1 HW limits, and more classic style maps where 8v8 would flourish.

I certainly remember <|187|> due to the ugly tag and the fact they're a bit closer to 2018 so it's easier to remember them. Also when I was in |s0| we had a British clanmate that actually made it into 187 which was pretty cool. The most I remember about the EU scene other than some major teams are some of the big name players and the ECTFCL. I always wanted to try playing on an EU team since it would have been easy to do since EU played on weekend afternoons for me, but my ping would have been around 170 - 200 if I even dared tried so I held off on it.

The issue I had with a lot of those big US maps is that there didn't seem to be as much room for specialised tactics. It was more a case of slowing down the cap rate were as on the smaller maps there was a very clear boundary between tactics that worked and ones that didn't with offensive and defensive always looking to leapfrog each other.

Actually one of the key's to success at the top level was I'd say practice, having your own server you could play 4 vs 4 offence vs defence or even 8 v 8 if you had the numbers rather than just depending on games against other clans. That really allowed tactics to be perfected and ment you could introduce something new in a big game that could swing the result.

I remember 187 coming close to spilting up during a clan match with us, ending up with about 3 people left on the team.

 

[fatlas]

The issue I had with a lot of those big US maps is that there didn't seem to be as much room for specialised tactics. It was more a case of slowing down the cap rate were as on the smaller maps there was a very clear boundary between tactics that worked and ones that didn't with offensive and defensive always looking to leapfrog each other.

Actually one of the key's to success at the top level was I'd say practice, having your own server you could play 4 vs 4 offence vs defence or even 8 v 8 if you had the numbers rather than just depending on games against other clans. That really allowed tactics to be perfected and ment you could introduce something new in a big game that could swing the result.

I remember 187 coming close to spilting up during a clan match with us, ending up with about 3 people left on the team.

Kind of have to mull over what maps you might be thinking of since a lot of the big maps I can remember played very differently. red_giant was a big map, but it was a very balanced map and played well across all divisions. prodigal_r was a large map, but it was a very methodical, grindy map to play. pitfall was the other extreme, a big, spacious map that was a speed demon's wet dream. Scouts taking over 100 deaths at top level play wasn't uncommon on it. Even crazier was it produced some pretty even games that weren't out of control capfests due to some solid map design. Then there was the two large reverse CTF maps that could come up in enclave and the classic epicenter. Those kind of maps came down to whether a team got it or not though since some teams would just drop dead on them regardless of the level of play.

Practice was no problem for me. Other than the usual standard clan that played the Mon/Thurs night leagues I also played on two 5v5 clans and a UGC 7v7 clan. Also was a regular 4v4 and pick up junkie for a long time and was even a gather admin for a while. TFC was pretty much a way of life for me for several years until I made the bigger mistake of giving into peer pressure and picking up WoW.

 

[moreorless87]

Kind of have to mull over what maps you might be thinking of since a lot of the big maps I can remember played very differently. red_giant was a big map, but it was a very balanced map and played well across all divisions. prodigal_r was a large map, but it was a very methodical, grindy map to play. pitfall was the other extreme, a big, spacious map that was a speed demon's wet dream. Scouts taking over 100 deaths at top level play wasn't uncommon on it. Even crazier was it produced some pretty even games that weren't out of control capfests due to some solid map design. Then there was the two large reverse CTF maps that could come up in enclave and the classic epicenter. Those kind of maps came down to whether a team got it or not though since some teams would just drop dead on them regardless of the level of play.

Practice was no problem for me. Other than the usual standard clan that played the Mon/Thurs night leagues I also played on two 5v5 clans and a UGC 7v7 clan. Also was a regular 4v4 and pick up junkie for a long time and was even a gather admin for a while. TFC was pretty much a way of life for me for several years until I made the bigger mistake of giving into peer pressure and picking up WoW.

There was generally I'd say a tendancy for those larger maps to be more predictable in terms of flag touches/caps though where as the smaller maps were more all or nothing, a defence could be close to watertight or it could be cracked open and lose badly. Honestly that's probably part of the reason why I gave up in the end, playing backline defence became such a pressurised situation rather than edd and flow.

Its all a little vague given the time but my memory is that the US game seemed to have more offencive team tactics. You can see on that avi the European style is really more focused on individual skill with any link up play happening more in the moment, basically keeping the pressure high and one med or scout having an inspired moment.

So maybe the European game more defensively tactical and the US game more offensively tactical?

 

[fatlas]

There was generally I'd say a tendancy for those larger maps to be more predictable in terms of flag touches/caps though where as the smaller maps were more all or nothing, a defence could be close to watertight or it could be cracked open and lose badly. Honestly that's probably part of the reason why I gave up in the end, playing backline defence became such a pressurised situation rather than edd and flow.

Its all a little vague given the time but my memory is that the US game seemed to have more offencive team tactics. You can see on that avi the European style is really more focused on individual skill with any link up play happening more in the moment, basically keeping the pressure high and one med or scout having an inspired moment.

So maybe the European game more defensively tactical and the US game more offensively tactical?

That's where the map variety in NA really shined in shaking things up. I'm flipping through some of my old post match screencaps and here's one sequence of 8v8/9v9 maps I had played: shutdown2 8v8, gleadraich_r, pitfall, darkness, run, siege 8v8, and ss_nyx_ectfc 8v8. That's an example of one stretch and I could probably remember or figure out some others. The map diversity also gave a chance for teams that were map specialists to shine or more opportunities to score upsets on superior teams that might struggle with some maps where a weaker team excelled. It also kept defenses active since you'd have to have all your strats down and positions and players would be shuffled around.

My opinion on NA being offensive or defensive is probably tainted by how much defense I played across all levels on so many teams (30 teams including teams I might have returned to and/or old clans being rebooted not counting 5v5, 7v7, or ADL). I lean toward NA being defensively minded just because the map spread and how most maps were always CTF. The goal for an offense is almost always going to be to capture the flasg regardless of the map size or speed, but a defense always has to adjust in different ways depending on the map.