How proficient are Muay Thai guys at throws compared to Judokas?

[spacetime]

I am fascinated by all this talk about how powerful the Thais are in the clinch, that they throw much bigger guys like dolls. This inevitably leads to the question how they would fare against a Judoka?

Could they hold their own or would they get annihilated by a judoka?

 

[lechien]

From what I have seen, they spar clinch grappling for about 10 minutes after 1 hour of sparring with strikes.

So not much time spend on it.

 

[QingTian]

It's very easy to throw someone with no grappling training. I would be surprised if any pure MT fighter throws a Judoka who isn't a beginner.

 

[Thaijitsu612]

From what I have seen, they spar clinch grappling for about 10 minutes after 1 hour of sparring with strikes.

So not much time spend on it.

Where have you seen this?

In America you will see a lot of muay thai schools neglect the clinch but in Thailand they spend a ton of time on the clinch and very adept. In our training sessions it was not uncommon to spend 45 minutes clinch sparring.

That said due to the limiting rules in muay thai I think overall judo throws are more efficient and judokas probably spend a larger percentage of their time working throws

 

[Uchi Mata]

It's very easy to throw someone with no grappling training. I would be surprised if any pure MT fighter throws a Judoka who isn't a beginner.

Sure they would, in a MT fight. But not because they're better at throwing people (they're not), but because it's a totally different paradigm. Throws are called 'dumps' in Muay Thai for a reason, it's because you're not setting them up and off balancing people so much as catching kicks and sweeping, or using strikes to create defensive reactions that get people off balance enough to throw them. And the repertoire is much smaller.



Now, in the gi or even in a straight grappling match without the gi (but no strikes), I don't think there are many if any MT fighters who are going to throw a proficient Judoka. But rule sets matter, it's no different than good wrestlers getting thrown around when they first take up Judo. It's just a different set of specific throwing skills for a different combat sport.

 

[lechien]

Where have you seen this?

In America you will see a lot of muay thai schools neglect the clinch but in Thailand they spend a ton of time on the clinch and very adept. In our training sessions it was not uncommon to spend 45 minutes clinch sparring.

That said due to the limiting rules in muay thai I think overall judo throws are more efficient and judokas probably spend a larger percentage of their time working throws

In NZ. But I am talking about a sparring class. Not a technical class.

45 minutes clinch sparring is a long time.

 

[rmongler]

Its illegal to do the holy backheel in MT, and therefore it is living in a constant state of sin and iniquity.

Praise be to our Lord, Greater Outer Reaping.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Its illegal to do the holy backheel in MT, and therefore it is living in a constant state of sin and iniquity.

Praise be to our Lord, Greater Outer Reaping.

I loved when they used to have San Shou with basically any throw, though as far as I could tell Cung Le was the only guy who was any good doing it. That's a fun rule set.

 

[Thaijitsu612]

In NZ. But I am talking about a sparring class. Not a technical class.

45 minutes clinch sparring is a long time.

Yes 45 minutes was a very very long time. It wasnt all out, or anywhere near it for that matter. It was just practicing the pummeling with light knees using the inner thighs and dumps. Still was exhausting.

 

[freaky]

MT sweeps and Judo sweeps are very similar. I trained in both. They both rely on redirect and using the other guy's momentum/power before sweeping with the leg.

Judo is obviously better since that's what their main focus is and they have more sweeps/throws.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

It's very easy to throw someone with no grappling training. I would be surprised if any pure MT fighter throws a Judoka who isn't a beginner.

Unless the MTer is able to distract the Judoka in the clinch with strikes.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Do they actually teach throws in MT or is it just something people boot leg over the course of their experience, and just feel like it is a cool thing to do, and I can probably get away with it?

 

[rmongler]

I loved when they used to have San Shou with basically any throw, though as far as I could tell Cung Le was the only guy who was any good doing it. That's a fun rule set.

I've often thought that a simplified sanda/more roughhouse version of sumo would be an idea medium for targeting and isolating the neutral game in MMA in a more sport specific manner.

Scoring knock/touchdowns and ringouts however they occur would neatly integrate the sometimes schizophrenic gaps and overlaps of striking and grappling skills a lot of fighters presently have into more organic and coherent overall approaches. It can account for whether your special intent is to take things to the ground or keep them standing, while above all emphasizing balance.

Which, I think, is one of the most valuable qualities there is to develop in all combat sports (and concordantly difficult to specifically target in an adaptive manner).

 

[CFGroup]

"Praise be to our Lord, Greater Outer Reaping"

"Praise be to our Lord, Greater Outer Reaping"

"His name is Robert Paulson"

"his name is Robert Paulson"

.....

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Lolwut^^

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

In the west ? Not proficient.

But there are thais that are very good at sweeps and dumps.

Check out Superbank, Payonsuk and Pakorn. Buakaw is also not bad.

I made a thread about this in the kick boxing forum. You ll find it on the first page.

 

[j123]

Do they actually teach throws in MT or is it just something people boot leg over the course of their experience, and just feel like it is a cool thing to do, and I can probably get away with it?

Yes.
The thing with MT is the "throws" are more dumps (not #2) and they're based on the idea that its a kick or knee that does it; Using your leg as an anchor to trip is illegal. At the end of the day its still a similar concept, you get your opponent off balance, then do the throw/dump, making it fairly easy as opposed to doing while they're based out strongly.

You can actually choke a guy out in MT with a standing arm triangle. Bullshit rounded knees, so you don't get broken up for stalling, while squeezing. The arm triangle position is allowed , it was an issue before when guys with a BJJ background transitioned over, as it was clearly a choke, but by the rules the position is allowed.

 

[ARIZE]

What j123 said. In MT your are not "allowed" to trip, throw your opponent. If he fell down, it must be because he lost his balance after one of your strikes.
Obviously it's a lot harder to clearly tell the difference between a trip and a strike... Was it a knee strike to his thigh while clinching, or was it a trip with the knee. Was it a kick to his ankle, or again just a trip...

But it's something you are taught and train, because loosing balance in a MT match, scores points for the opponents and makes him look more aggressive. It also sap your confidence, and drain your energy.

I believe a judoka would have a clear advantage, but a MT clinch is a lot tougher to deal with than most grapplers expect it to be.

 

[DaGenius]

Judo throws and Muay Thai clinch are so diferent that I don't know if this can be a valid comparison

 

[cakemuncher]

Hip tosses are not allowed in MT, so all the techniques involving clinch are kind of oblivious to that possibility. When you're clinching someone you are primarily trying to control the space between you and your opponent and create openings for the knees.

Sweeps are rather basic, it's basically all about disbalancing your opponent and attacking the leg which carries most of his weight. It's quite easy to do in the ring because the floor is bouncy.

So, when it comes to throwing, judoka would obviously have the edge. Although I have to say that pro MT fighters do have a great understanding of balance.