how much grappling in Kenpo karate

[Sami Ibrahim]

I thought Chuck Liddell proved Kenpo.

The thing is Chuck Liddell proved Chuck Liddell, even if someone else studied the exact same style as Chuck Liddell, even if they used the same body mechanics to throw an overhead right or that liver punch or that spinning back kick he does they can't live vicariously through Chuck Liddell, he would get in the ring and really fight it out like a viking, he was not playing it safe he was ready to be carried out on his shield and he went after the knock out. Mimicry is flattery sure but to brag...to brag about a martial art like it is the martial art that went out and did all the work is so delusional. If someone wants to fight in a cage if they have that desire to go bang it out with some fighter from another discipline that is great but it will always be fighter vs fighter, it won't ever be System A vs System B. The original question was asking about the kind of grappling in Kenpo. I explained that it depended on what the practitioner was focused on, it was certainly their historically and it continues to be their even in the most modern spin offs but people like what they like and in pursue or teach what they want to based on their true motive for teaching which these days for the typical commercial studio is to make money first so a lot of things get glossed over or rushed through.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I thought Chuck Liddell proved Kenpo.

And chuck fought like a kickboxer...

The past card there was a kenpo black belt kid, basically zero difference with any other kickboxer, more like wonderboy though... That's all I'm saying, rapid fire strikes become kick boxing as soon as shit hits the fan...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

The thing is Chuck Liddell proved Chuck Liddell, even if someone else studied the exact same style as Chuck Liddell, even if they used the same body mechanics to throw an overhead right or that liver punch or that spinning back kick he does they can't live vicariously through Chuck Liddell, he would get in the ring and really fight it out like a viking, he was not playing it safe he was ready to be carried out on his shield and he went after the knock out. Mimicry is flattery sure but to brag...to brag about a martial art like it is the martial art that went out and did all the work is so delusional. If someone wants to fight in a cage if they have that desire to go bang it out with some fighter from another discipline that is great but it will always be fighter vs fighter, it won't ever be System A vs System B. The original question was asking about the kind of grappling in Kenpo. I explained that it depended on what the practitioner was focused on, it was certainly their historically and it continues to be their even in the most modern spin offs but people like what they like and in pursue or teach what they want to based on their true motive for teaching which these days for the typical commercial studio is to make money first so a lot of things get glossed over or rushed through.

I'm sure some could dominate, could they do it applying rapid fire counters? That's what I'm asking... Any individual with talent who embraces Mma despite his background eventually can make it... You see, combat sports have been proven in the cage... Many bjj guys have had success with it in the past with pure bjj... so no one denies its efficiency, same with mt wrestling and other combat sports, where their training resembles how they fight using those styles... That's the problem I see with kenpo... There's not been a single person in the history of the internet being caught actually using one of those rapid fire techniques you mention. that is the problem we non kenpo guys and specially combat sports fans have with kenpo and similar ma, untill we seen it work in real life... It remains very doubtful

 

[Thycidides]

Sorry for the late reply I've been very busy with retirement and transitioning to another state. I have given your request some thought and I have concluded that of the things that make Kenpo unique from a style perspective would be the "rapid fire striking" the ability to generate powerful and accurate strikes in rapid fire succession in a very short window of time, In the time it takes the avg. fighter to throw a jab, cross, low roundhouse kick combination the well trained Kenpo practitioner can easily land triple that number of attacks, this gave rise to the Kenpo saying that ends with "to feel is to believe" because to the untrained eye it can seem like the Kenpo practitioner's strikes are not as powerful because how can someone generate so much power in such rapid fire with what often seemed like smaller almost difficult to see movements. Now, it was hard to find a video of someone demonstrating this clearly on YouTube but I did find a video that can give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Some people think this guy is the fastest but their are many people in the Kenpo community who are much faster and equally powerful and some of them are even little old guys who have been able to maintain their ability despite old age or smaller size. Now their are many Kenpo people who try to emulate this kind of movement but are missing the body mechanics that power the limbs so they end up throwing a bunch of weak strikes we jokingly call popcorn kenpo.

I am sorry that this video will only offer a small glimpse of an aspect that is almost unique to Kenpo, think of it like touching one small part of an elephant if you were blind, try not to jump to the conclusion that what you get from the video is all that their is.

To be honest looks a revers strike with a stick ive seen in escrima.


I get the impression the kempo mentality is a lot like the escrima mentality, however the escrima people I know also do BJJ or Mauy Thai or some full contact karate. They also use a stick which doesn't need so much power.

However, I stopped going because there was no sparring and doing solo katas in a line was tedious. On of the instructors treated me like a child and would point out every little mistakes with my form and was impatient compared to the others, which was odd.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

To be honest looks a revers strike with a stick ive seen in escrima.


I get the impression the kempo mentality is a lot like the escrima mentality, however the escrima people I know also do BJJ or Mauy Thai or some full contact karate. They also use a stick which doesn't need so much power.

However, I stopped going because there was no sparring and doing solo katas in a line was tedious. On of the instructors treated me like a child and would point out every little mistakes with my form and was impatient compared to the others, which was odd.

I am glad you left, people should not study a martial art that is not suited for them, that is what I was saying before about needing to click with not just the system but with the instructor and also to have your needs met which can be very different from person to person.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

I'm sure some could dominate, could they do it applying rapid fire counters? That's what I'm asking... Any individual with talent who embraces Mma despite his background eventually can make it... You see, combat sports have been proven in the cage... Many bjj guys have had success with it in the past with pure bjj... so no one denies its efficiency, same with mt wrestling and other combat sports, where their training resembles how they fight using those styles... That's the problem I see with kenpo... There's not been a single person in the history of the internet being caught actually using one of those rapid fire techniques you mention. that is the problem we non kenpo guys and specially combat sports fans have with kenpo and similar ma, untill we seen it work in real life... It remains very doubtful

The human body is the human body, many moves applied look identical or similar even if given different names or if fired from a different position. For example a linear lead hand punch fired from a MT fighting position looks like a linear lead hand punch fired by a Judoka or a BJJ guy or a Kenpo guy or a Sumo, movement is movement, a hip throw looks like a hip throw no matter who is delivering it, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, It is unlikely to find some devoted to a self defense art as to say they have a near mastery of that rapid fire type of counter who will be motivated enough to get into sports. The Kenpo guys that focus even on light sparring competitions don't focus as much on the self defense. Quality Kenpo is focused on teaching people from the premise that they dont know anything about fighting and getting them to be versed at self defense. Offshoots exist that take every move to the kill and offshoots exist that focus on sports but they are not the norm. when it comes to self defense it does not matter if your a MT champion your life and mortality are still a reality. Sometimes a little self defense common sense wisdom is worth much more than the accumulated fighting experience of full contact matches. i.e. someone hits your car and you go running after them in your MT shorts only to catch them because you have great cardio and BANG now your dead or a guy jumps on the bus and demands everyone's money and your thinking I am a BJJ black belt I can disarm this guy and BANG your dead, if you know who I am talking about lets leave their names out of it I don't like speaking ill of the dead. I am just making the point that Self Defense training is not about winning sport matches its about making it home to your family its about survival when your mistaken for a victim. Just food for thought.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

OK quick little kids story I was told by my Kenpo instructor when I was 7. He said once their was a great warrior who was respected throughout the village and one day in broad daylight while most of the villagers were around a poor bum pulled out the smallest little knife and demanded the warriors money. The warrior took his gold coins and gave them to the poor bum and the bum smiled and ran off. The people in the village started laughing and mocking the warrior because they thought he was a coward. Then one day a warlord attacked the village with his army and the warrior drew his weapons and fought them off saving the people of the village from certain death. An old man was perplexed and asked the warrior, if you could fight so well why didnt you kill the poor bum that robbed you, and the warrior said "are a few coins worth a human life"

That story has always stuck with me.

 

[Thycidides]

It is unlikely to find some devoted to a self defense art as to say they have a near mastery of that rapid fire type of counter who will be motivated enough to get into sports. .

Hold on, this sounds like the Mc dojo attitude you were complaining about earlier, people that show up, do some drills, memorize a kata rather than training hard hours a week for a long period of time. It sounds like the fake confidence stuff you were dismissing earlier.

How does one tell if a student is well versed in self defense? How does one evaluate if someone is a good kempo teacher? Seems like a hard way to evaluate progress.

In BJJ and judo you evaluate progress through winning matches and through sparring. These activities allow for spontaneity and creativity and demand the practioner adapt to changing circumstances or get beat up.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

S

The human body is the human body, many moves applied look identical or similar even if given different names or if fired from a different position. For example a linear lead hand punch fired from a MT fighting position looks like a linear lead hand punch fired by a Judoka or a BJJ guy or a Kenpo guy or a Sumo, movement is movement, a hip throw looks like a hip throw no matter who is delivering it, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, It is unlikely to find some devoted to a self defense art as to say they have a near mastery of that rapid fire type of counter who will be motivated enough to get into sports. The Kenpo guys that focus even on light sparring competitions don't focus as much on the self defense. Quality Kenpo is focused on teaching people from the premise that they dont know anything about fighting and getting them to be versed at self defense. Offshoots exist that take every move to the kill and offshoots exist that focus on sports but they are not the norm. when it comes to self defense it does not matter if your a MT champion your life and mortality are still a reality. Sometimes a little self defense common sense wisdom is worth much more than the accumulated fighting experience of full contact matches. i.e. someone hits your car and you go running after them in your MT shorts only to catch them because you have great cardio and BANG now your dead or a guy jumps on the bus and demands everyone's money and your thinking I am a BJJ black belt I can disarm this guy and BANG your dead, if you know who I am talking about lets leave their names out of it I don't like speaking ill of the dead. I am just making the point that Self Defense training is not about winning sport matches its about making it home to your family its about survival when your mistaken for a victim. Just food for thought.

imo, any training that doesn't involve full contact is not realistic nor will be good for any purpose... I guess we have to agree to disagree is alright...

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

Hold on, this sounds like the Mc dojo attitude you were complaining about earlier, people that show up, do some drills, memorize a kata rather than training hard hours a week for a long period of time. It sounds like the fake confidence stuff you were dismissing earlier.

How does one tell if a student is well versed in self defense? How does one evaluate if someone is a good kempo teacher? Seems like a hard way to evaluate progress.

In BJJ and judo you evaluate progress through winning matches and through sparring. These activities allow for spontaneity and creativity and demand the practioner adapt to changing circumstances or get beat up.

Again the issue is with this need to evaluate someone else, if they are your kenpo students their are ways to pressure test but outside of that to each his or her own, the people that study self-defense can only know if what they learned will really work in the moment of actual combat which in Kenpo we call the moment of truth they can get close by pressure testing stuff in close to realistic scenario training, when they don't know what is going to happen just like reality, you don't know anything about the kinds of attacks you will be facing or the psychological or medical history of your attacker outside of what you can estimate during the scenario. The scenarios are drawn from FBI and Police statistics and a study of how violent offenders do their thing these days and not on how to defeat a Gracie. Because their are so many commercial studios teaching Kenpo as a money making business with no real scenario training to speak of, they do give false confidence and those who can see through the BS often do take what learned into the sport fighting venue to prove themselves that they are not wasting time and more times than not since they trained only to memorize scripts with no resistance they fail. They become the people who now "hate kenpo" confident that all kenpo is garbage or 99% is garbage because they think all Kenpo instructors are teaching the same way as their commercial studio taught them. It would be funny if I didn't feel sorry for them throwing away their hard earned money.

 

[SummerStriker]

And chuck fought like a kickboxer...

The past card there was a kenpo black belt kid, basically zero difference with any other kickboxer, more like wonderboy though... That's all I'm saying, rapid fire strikes become kick boxing as soon as shit hits the fan...

He did do some stuff from Kenpo you don't normally see. He threw some snap kicks and chambered some of his punches from the hip.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

S

imo, any training that doesn't involve full contact is not realistic nor will be good for any purpose... I guess we have to agree to disagree is alright...

When I pressure test my technique I ask that my partner attack me with maximum hate and aggression, I should be knocked on my arse if I screw up and in that way I make sure specific defensive moves are functional, I ask my training partners to really shoot in and tackle me don't just pretend to do the attack and wait for me to counter, attack as if you have every expectation of success, don't anticipate my counter because in self-defense the attacker won't know what I am going to do. During my Kenpo work outs I set aside time where I drill without knowing what attacks the training partner will launch and the training partner is expected to resist and counter my moves until they cannot despite their best efforts. When it comes to striking I use light to medium contact when I work with my training partners and strike full force on the heavy bag or dummies or pads. When I meet well trained and well conditioned training partners especially from other arts whom I have a friendship and trust with I will fight full contact but I don't like to do that against people I don't know or trust enough, I take no real joy from destroying someone in training, I just want to improve myself and my skill with my martial art. I've been in many situations in my life where if my Kenpo skill fell short I would have died. Prior to my child being born I gravitated to dangerous lines of work, now I'd be content being a librarian. So when you say training involving full contact I do agree with you, if your saying get in a cage and fight MMA matches or NHB matches or what you do won't be realistic I have to smile because I know what I do works from direct experience.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

You know what really throws a lot of martial arts people off including those who are used to full contact NHB fighting is a lack of self-defense scenario training, the way that experienced criminals, thugs, violent offenders etc pick out and set up their prey can throw people who don't train for that kind of thing off. When your used to fighting high level fighters and someone attacks you with some sloppy garbage looking tackle and you knock them out with ease and look down to see your intestines on the floor is too late to start training for commonly used tactics by those who want to take your life. I've always taken flack from even the commercial kenpo community for pushing the importance of training to defend against attempts at murder by experienced killers but again to each his own, I think if you train for the worst and encounter anything less dangerous thats great but I'd hate to have it the other way around.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

When I pressure test my technique I ask that my partner attack me with maximum hate and aggression, I should be knocked on my arse if I screw up and in that way I make sure specific defensive moves are functional, I ask my training partners to really shoot in and tackle me don't just pretend to do the attack and wait for me to counter, attack as if you have every expectation of success, don't anticipate my counter because in self-defense the attacker won't know what I am going to do. During my Kenpo work outs I set aside time where I drill without knowing what attacks the training partner will launch and the training partner is expected to resist and counter my moves until they cannot despite their best efforts. When it comes to striking I use light to medium contact when I work with my training partners and strike full force on the heavy bag or dummies or pads. When I meet well trained and well conditioned training partners especially from other arts whom I have a friendship and trust with I will fight full contact but I don't like to do that against people I don't know or trust enough, I take no real joy from destroying someone in training, I just want to improve myself and my skill with my martial art. I've been in many situations in my life where if my Kenpo skill fell short I would have died. Prior to my child being born I gravitated to dangerous lines of work, now I'd be content being a librarian. So when you say training involving full contact I do agree with you, if your saying get in a cage and fight MMA matches or NHB matches or what you do won't be realistic I have to smile because I know what I do works from direct experience.

lets just say that thats exactly what every single person says about his skills in every single TMA. Aikido guys also run full speed towards his opponent, is not realistic though. While your class mate may attack you full speed, if you are traning rapid fire sd technique, at least from all the kenpo vids Ive seen and the one you showed me too, you are not making full contact, in real life people keep coming, people move and people dont stand still for you to rapid fire the shit out of them, that is the main problem.

As if you have or hve not used your skills, well I wouldnt know, so I take your word, but just like you, thres probably 1029391238219 kenpo practitioners in the world, its just odd no one has ever been caught on tape doing somre rapid fire stuff... yet, most claim to have succesfully use their techniques, same as aikido guys, same as kung fu guys etc. Its the same always, the same line... I am not saying what you are saying is not true, but you have to understand our skepticism

 

[Thycidides]

When I pressure test my technique I ask that my partner attack me with maximum hate and aggression, I should be knocked on my arse if I screw up and in that way I make sure specific defensive moves are functional, I ask my training partners to really shoot in and tackle me don't just pretend to do the attack and wait for me to counter, attack as if you have every expectation of success, don't anticipate my counter because in self-defense the attacker won't know what I am going to do. During my Kenpo work outs I set aside time where I drill without knowing what attacks the training partner will launch and the training partner is expected to resist and counter my moves until they cannot despite their best efforts. When it comes to striking I use light to medium contact when I work with my training partners and strike full force on the heavy bag or dummies or pads. When I meet well trained and well conditioned training partners especially from other arts whom I have a friendship and trust with I will fight full contact but I don't like to do that against people I don't know or trust enough, I take no real joy from destroying someone in training, I just want to improve myself and my skill with my martial art. I've been in many situations in my life where if my Kenpo skill fell short I would have died. Prior to my child being born I gravitated to dangerous lines of work, now I'd be content being a librarian. So when you say training involving full contact I do agree with you, if your saying get in a cage and fight MMA matches or NHB matches or what you do won't be realistic I have to smile because I know what I do works from direct experience.

That sounds like you basically taught yourself to fight. To be honest a lot of Mauy Thai and Boxing training is like this. Bjj to an extent if one just went to open mats or specific drills classes.

You should post a video of yourself sparring if you want us to really believe you though. Or maybe one of you punching the heavy bag...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

You know what really throws a lot of martial arts people off including those who are used to full contact NHB fighting is a lack of self-defense scenario training, the way that experienced criminals, thugs, violent offenders etc pick out and set up their prey can throw people who don't train for that kind of thing off. When your used to fighting high level fighters and someone attacks you with some sloppy garbage looking tackle and you knock them out with ease and look down to see your intestines on the floor is too late to start training for commonly used tactics by those who want to take your life. I've always taken flack from even the commercial kenpo community for pushing the importance of training to defend against attempts at murder by experienced killers but again to each his own, I think if you train for the worst and encounter anything less dangerous thats great but I'd hate to have it the other way around.

well, you believe in knife training, I dont, not a bit, its ok to show some stuff to your mates, but most of the times, youll end up dead if the other person really wants to take your life.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

I just got back from a nice little work out with a close friend and 9th degree black belt instructor whose been doing Kenpo since before 1973 and I took the time to ask him about his opinion of much of what we discussed. This man was in the Military as a cop and then civilian Law Enforcement so plenty of real world experience as well as has been teaching Kenpo for a long time, he has produced some really skilled kenpo guys who are great instructors in their own right and just an all around great guy.

Their was four of us in their today myself included and we drilled the heck out of exploding in with an attack without any telegraphing and then running the guy down, We worked on a jab or back knuckle with the lead and then throwing the mechanics of the cross as a feint and when the guy fades back and does not cover his jaw well enough with the shoulder we go over the top with the overhead right, we worked the liver punch and tried to keep from dipping the entire body down before launching it, kicking the body into it at the last moment like swinging a wrecking ball. Then we took some parts of our techniques and worked them into our sparring either as counters or as offensive applications. I am sore as all get out and my arms are banged up and my wife described my ankles as missing in action with all the swelling but I will be back out there tomorrow morning and later in the afternoon we are having a gathering where some people from near by schools will come join us. As we recently attended a fight night at a local kyokushin karate school, their instructor and some of their students will come train with us tomorrow. I really do love this art of Kenpo. I am working on becoming a more technical fighter its very interesting to me I really have to work on my finesse, still feels like I move like a pregnant yak.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

That sounds like you basically taught yourself to fight. To be honest a lot of Mauy Thai and Boxing training is like this. Bjj to an extent if one just went to open mats or specific drills classes.

You should post a video of yourself sparring if you want us to really believe you though. Or maybe one of you punching the heavy bag...

I am not honestly interesting in "proving" myself, I don't want what I say to be a matter of belief or disbelief, I want it to be a matter of common sense and logic. Direct experience IMHO is the be all end all of learning, the true key to understanding and of retaining that understanding. When I teach I want each student to walk away from the training session having had a direct experience with some aspect of violence. It does not have to be success it can be getting repeatedly stabbed up with the training blade while working on surviving the sowing needle knife blitz but they walk away with that experience, like dang when that guy pinned me up against the wall and started aggressively stabbing me while cussing at me with such hatred on his face, I just didn't have an answer, even if it leads to just identifying a weakness that is great in my book. It is all the direct experiences that are going to take the theory that a martial art offers up and transform it into something real, it wont be a video, it won't be the experience of watching a video that will really be of much benefit, that being said I look forward to sharing my videos with you all after I relocate to TN mid july.

 

[Whippy McGee]

There are some specific grab defenses (while standing) that work and are trained in Kenpo.

Cross wrist grabs, straight standing collar grabes, rear shoulder grabs, are all a bad idea with someone that is trained well in Kenpo. Now, only a rookie would grab another person in those ways. Cleary a BJJ Purple Belt would trash a Kenpo Black Belt if that Black Belt had no wrestling or BJJ background.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

There are some specific grab defenses (while standing) that work and are trained in Kenpo.

Cross wrist grabs, straight standing collar grabes, rear shoulder grabs, are all a bad idea with someone that is trained well in Kenpo. Now, only a rookie would grab another person in those ways. Cleary a BJJ Purple Belt would trash a Kenpo Black Belt if that Black Belt had no wrestling or BJJ background.

a white belt with six months is going to wipe the floor with any dude whos not trained in grappling, given both guys are have similar physical skills... let alone a purple.