how much grappling in Kenpo karate

[Sami Ibrahim]

You would like to see a video on movements that are mostly unique to Kenpo. OK, I will see what I can come up with.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

As to your statement that most TMA are worthless, I disagree it is not so much the case that TMA are worthless it is that commercialism and TMA are not compatible. When people think of tradition maybe they are thinking of worthless ceremonial things but really TMA are traditional ways of teaching fighting and if that was actually taking place at your local, commercial studio that would be one thing but ever since the commercialism monster was let out of its cage its been disguising its self like Mr, Miyagi while running day care centers. Think about it this way, before all the black belt mills before all the BS a teacher was known in the community by his skills and character not by his yellow page or internet ads and certainly not by any belt around his hips.

When you started training you were nothing, nobody kissed your arse or gave you a gold star for effort, you cleaned the school and massaged your masters nasty, stinky feet or at least offered him a cup of tea and you were given a little bit at a time to see if you could be trusted and had what it takes to really work hard without quitting and at the end of the trial period if you were one of the few elites you got pulled into the trusted circle and learned whatever martial art and you got your only tangible reward, permission and recognition to teach but if you started acting a fool or shamed your master or your discipline your permission was probably getting revoked and your teacher would either personally come and cripple you or send his best to do so. Society its self did not tolerate a fraudulent martial arts teacher back in the day, you had to be able to back up your martial arts claims because challenge matches were fairly common and nobody was basing their choice to study with you on the number of stripes on your belt it was about your skill and your rep and your honor.

Even when a teacher was brought in to teach Soldiers, they did not just hire anyone, they held tournaments and the dude the beat everyone got the job and while all the Soldiers got basic training the elite got more. Yang Lu Chan the founder of Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan was teaching the Soldiers that guarded the Emperor of China but he didn't get hired until after his reputation grew from constantly defeating other challengers that he was nicknamed Yang the invincible and winning a big tournament. So if things many call traditional were really following tradition they would be MUCH MUCH MORE effective than what you see today only pretending to be TMA. Don't be fooled by the fakes. That is modern commercial martial arts business, guys and gals teaching for money to make money and avoid anything that could cause them to lose money, like fighting challenges and losing or a law suit because little Timmy sprained his wrist. Sorry I went on a rant.

The efficiency of a MA is in the training. If you are doing a Full contact MA, no matter what style is, then youll be probably end up doing some tipe of boxing kick boxing etc.

If you are not doing full contact type of training, then you will suck when you have to fight.

it doesnt matter the style, its the training what makes the difference that is why grappling arts are so effcient. That is why boxing and MT and kick boxing are never questned as if they work or not.

I dont see tai chi wushu and other exotics MA doing full contact sparring, dont know if it was the case in the past though.

 

[Thycidides]

The efficiency of a MA is in the training. If you are doing a Full contact MA, no matter what style is, then youll be probably end up doing some tipe of boxing kick boxing etc.

If you are not doing full contact type of training, then you will suck when you have to fight.

it doesnt matter the style, its the training what makes the difference that is why grappling arts are so effcient. That is why boxing and MT and kick boxing are never questned as if they work or not.

I dont see tai chi wushu and other exotics MA doing full contact sparring, dont know if it was the case in the past though.

There are some forms of Tai Chi and Wushu that do full contact sparring, The results are kind of sloppy though.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

There are some forms of Tai Chi and Wushu that do full contact sparring, The results are kind of sloppy though.

of course t will be sloppy and ugly, its just like getting 2 untrained dudes in anything and give them gloves and make them spar. It will look like that because they hardly train in full contact.

 

[selfcritical]

The efficiency of a MA is in the training. If you are doing a Full contact MA, no matter what style is, then youll be probably end up doing some tipe of boxing kick boxing etc.

If you are not doing full contact type of training, then you will suck when you have to fight.

it doesnt matter the style, its the training what makes the difference that is why grappling arts are so effcient. That is why boxing and MT and kick boxing are never questned as if they work or not.

I dont see tai chi wushu and other exotics MA doing full contact sparring, dont know if it was the case in the past though.

Tai Chi guys actually do pretty well in San Shou, and they have their own "wrestling" rule set in China (the US rules are stupid). The dumb mystical expression and the combat sport somehow manage to co-exist, which is annoying.

 

[Thycidides]

Tai Chi guys actually do pretty well in San Shou, and they have their own "wrestling" rule set in China (the US rules are stupid). The dumb mystical expression and the combat sport somehow manage to co-exist, which is annoying.

How does one tell the competitive schools from the mystical stuff? San shou looks like a cool ruleset, I like that they allow more throws than Muay Thai.

I'm pretty open minded when it comes to martial arts, however ive noticed that only the ones that have a rule set and can be played as a game seem interesting to me now. Also the martial arts that have a game or compettive component seem to produce better teachers than ones that don't.

 

[selfcritical]

How does one tell the competitive schools from the mystical stuff? San shou looks like a cool ruleset, I like that they allow more throws than Muay Thai.

I'm pretty open minded when it comes to martial arts, however ive noticed that only the ones that have a rule set and can be played as a game seem interesting to me now. Also the martial arts that have a game or compettive component seem to produce better teachers than ones that don't.

In the US? I'm not particularly sure they exist here. In China it would be immediately obvious. Some are people preparing for a sport, and others are old people doing stand up slow yoga in the park.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

That's kind of disheartening to hear, because I'm more or less a beginner in judo but BJJ students that do not cross train are impressed by my ability to take a fall and do a shoulder throw. Judo fighters have a reputation of throwing hard and taking falls. It seems to me after years of training you should have a move or set of skills you can do that other martial artitss unfamiliar with kempo don't , even if its similar to how a MMA fighter has weaker punches than the boxer but better takedowns.



So I like to video see a move that is mostly unique to kempo, or that kempo fighters specialize in. If kempo Is more like MMA where there is a lot of variety and fighters are unique, post several videos that show that uniqueness.

Sorry for the late reply I've been very busy with retirement and transitioning to another state. I have given your request some thought and I have concluded that of the things that make Kenpo unique from a style perspective would be the "rapid fire striking" the ability to generate powerful and accurate strikes in rapid fire succession in a very short window of time, In the time it takes the avg. fighter to throw a jab, cross, low roundhouse kick combination the well trained Kenpo practitioner can easily land triple that number of attacks, this gave rise to the Kenpo saying that ends with "to feel is to believe" because to the untrained eye it can seem like the Kenpo practitioner's strikes are not as powerful because how can someone generate so much power in such rapid fire with what often seemed like smaller almost difficult to see movements. Now, it was hard to find a video of someone demonstrating this clearly on YouTube but I did find a video that can give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Some people think this guy is the fastest but their are many people in the Kenpo community who are much faster and equally powerful and some of them are even little old guys who have been able to maintain their ability despite old age or smaller size. Now their are many Kenpo people who try to emulate this kind of movement but are missing the body mechanics that power the limbs so they end up throwing a bunch of weak strikes we jokingly call popcorn kenpo.

I am sorry that this video will only offer a small glimpse of an aspect that is almost unique to Kenpo, think of it like touching one small part of an elephant if you were blind, try not to jump to the conclusion that what you get from the video is all that their is.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Sorry for the late reply I've been very busy with retirement and transitioning to another state. I have given your request some thought and I have concluded that of the things that make Kenpo unique from a style perspective would be the "rapid fire striking" the ability to generate powerful and accurate strikes in rapid fire succession in a very short window of time, In the time it takes the avg. fighter to throw a jab, cross, low roundhouse kick combination the well trained Kenpo practitioner can easily land triple that number of attacks, this gave rise to the Kenpo saying that ends with "to feel is to believe" because to the untrained eye it can seem like the Kenpo practitioner's strikes are not as powerful because how can someone generate so much power in such rapid fire with what often seemed like smaller almost difficult to see movements. Now, it was hard to find a video of someone demonstrating this clearly on YouTube but I did find a video that can give you an idea of what I am talking about.

Some people think this guy is the fastest but their are many people in the Kenpo community who are much faster and equally powerful and some of them are even little old guys who have been able to maintain their ability despite old age or smaller size. Now their are many Kenpo people who try to emulate this kind of movement but are missing the body mechanics that power the limbs so they end up throwing a bunch of weak strikes we jokingly call popcorn kenpo.

I am sorry that this video will only offer a small glimpse of an aspect that is almost unique to Kenpo, think of it like touching one small part of an elephant if you were blind, try not to jump to the conclusion that what you get from the video is all that their is.

it all looks good on demo, but like I said, as soon as shit hits the fan, its all about kick boxing.

i see no reason why wouldnt a competent kenpo practitioner walk in the cage and do any of these rapid fire striking.

 

[SummerStriker]

it all looks good on demo, but like I said, as soon as shit hits the fan, its all about kick boxing.

i see no reason why wouldnt a competent kenpo practitioner walk in the cage and do any of these rapid fire striking.

It is a lot easier to throw rapid, powerful strikes with your feet planted. Think about how fast you can throw burnout strikes on Thai Pads while planted, even though you don't really spar or fight like that.

I think Kempo, like WC, imagines a self defense situation where you choose to hit first against a threatening person standing in front of you, and you go off.

Kick boxers move around and counter strike too much to forgo head movement and defense while you unleash a flurry.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

It is a lot easier to throw rapid, powerful strikes with your feet planted. Think about how fast you can throw burnout strikes on Thai Pads while planted, even though you don't really spar or fight like that.

I think Kempo, like WC, imagines a self defense situation where you choose to hit first against a threatening person standing in front of you, and you go off.

Kick boxers move around and counter strike too much to forgo head movement and defense while you unleash a flurry.

so basically you either hit first or turns into a kick boxing fight?

When someone is hitting pads in thai traingin, like those multuple kicks, well no one expects nayone to throw 100 kicks, becasue everyone knows the opponent wont be there to recieve 100 kicks... But one or 2 kicks with the same technique which is practice in MT always happen... Not the same bro...

Ive seen countless kenpo techniques that are counters, and rapid fire strikings are always use to counter X and X strike...

well, why isnt anyone pulling any of these moves even in low level mma. I mean im not even asking for it to be pull in the UFC, but come on, by now, Im quite sure plenty kenpo guys have stepped in regional shows, where the level of competition isnt very high, specially in the past, yet not one single time anything remotely like those strikes have been caught on tape.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

it all looks good on demo, but like I said, as soon as shit hits the fan, its all about kick boxing.

i see no reason why wouldnt a competent kenpo practitioner walk in the cage and do any of these rapid fire striking.

Different kinds of people gravitate and end up devoting themselves to different kinds of Martial Arts in our modern age where we often have the luxury to select from multiple types of Martial Arts but to actually devote yourself to one specific Martial Art, their is usually a three fold connection, The individual clicks with the Martial Art and the Individual clicks with the Martial Arts Instructor and the individuals needs/results get met. Tai Chi Chuan has advertised its self as an internal martial art that helps heal the sick and attainment of longevity, when it comes to fighting it has advertised that it is a way for even a feeble old man to defend himself from younger, faster and stronger opponents. Its philosophy and concepts are taoist in nature and so the kind of person who would usually devote themselves to Tai Chi Chuan would be someone who places a high value on longevity and health, perhaps a sick man with a heart condition and high blood pressure who is healed after a little Tai Chi Chuan training, needs having been met and loving the calming feeling of the moving meditation he may spend the rest of his life developing his skill.

Someone who would devote themselves to Kenpo on the other hand is a little different. Kenpo has usually advertised its self as a self defense art well suited for a surprise attack or to protect yourself during an unavoidable altercation. The general attitude is to train to survive the initial attack while you maneuver to a position that will permit the quick end of the altercation with the tables basically being turned on the one who surprise attacked now finding the perceived easy prey to be the dragon (wisdom and experience) that overcomes the tiger (strength and aggression) and in recent decades since it made its way to the United States it has become infamous for advocating individual, free thinkers who like to question everything and encourages creativity over blindly following tradition. Kenpo favors attacking vital areas like the eyes, throat and groin so the kind of people that tend to gravitate toward it are people who are not very powerful to begin with and are looking for a way to turn the tables on an attacker should violence be unavoidable. The kind of person who would devote years of their life to a "self defense" obsessed system like Kenpo is someone who would not willingly desire to fight others but likely had their share of having to protect their own life many times, becoming fully aware of the dangers of violence they may feel indebted to Kenpo for giving them the skill to survive such altercations and now pursue it in order to pass it down to the next generation and to give back to the art that saved them so many times. Such a person is unlikely to desire to get into a cage and fight full contact, fearful not just of the potential injuries that may happen to them but also fearful of the nearly reflexive responses they have ingrained that would cause them to violate the rules despite their best efforts.

Their are of course exceptions to the rule, their are as you well know Kenpo people and schools that are entirely devoted to competitive fighting with people from other martial arts so naturally they practice against the kinds of attacks and the kinds of fighters they will be facing. That means that much of the self-defense focused stuff is neglected, deleted or learned only as a side amusement and the attention is more on the conditioning and moves that are permitted in the venue they wish to compete in. The interesting thing that is happening these days with the popularity of the UFC is that more people are mimicking or having received some training in BJJ and MT just as when Kenpo came to the United States it was common to have counters for boxing, wrestling and Shotokan Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Judo because that was the common norm. Now I see Kenpo innovators working counters for BJJ take downs and submissions and MT combinations. Their are also Kenpo people that have moved in the opposite direction instead of going self defense to sport they went from self-defense to military combat, specializing in the knife.

When you try to fit everyone into categories it can be rather futile even this is just a generic way to explain that martial arts are not a one size fits all deal, people gravitate toward what they care about.

 

[SummerStriker]

so basically you either hit first or turns into a kick boxing fight?

When someone is hitting pads in thai traingin, like those multuple kicks, well no one expects nayone to throw 100 kicks, becasue everyone knows the opponent wont be there to recieve 100 kicks... But one or 2 kicks with the same technique which is practice in MT always happen... Not the same bro...

Ive seen countless kenpo techniques that are counters, and rapid fire strikings are always use to counter X and X strike...

well, why isnt anyone pulling any of these moves even in low level mma. I mean im not even asking for it to be pull in the UFC, but come on, by now, Im quite sure plenty kenpo guys have stepped in regional shows, where the level of competition isnt very high, specially in the past, yet not one single time anything remotely like those strikes have been caught on tape.

I'm not defending them. I think their main use is for sucker punching people, not for fighting.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Different kinds of people gravitate and end up devoting themselves to different kinds of Martial Arts in our modern age where we often have the luxury to select from multiple types of Martial Arts but to actually devote yourself to one specific Martial Art, their is usually a three fold connection, The individual clicks with the Martial Art and the Individual clicks with the Martial Arts Instructor and the individuals needs/results get met. Tai Chi Chuan has advertised its self as an internal martial art that helps heal the sick and attainment of longevity, when it comes to fighting it has advertised that it is a way for even a feeble old man to defend himself from younger, faster and stronger opponents. Its philosophy and concepts are taoist in nature and so the kind of person who would usually devote themselves to Tai Chi Chuan would be someone who places a high value on longevity and health, perhaps a sick man with a heart condition and high blood pressure who is healed after a little Tai Chi Chuan training, needs having been met and loving the calming feeling of the moving meditation he may spend the rest of his life developing his skill.

Someone who would devote themselves to Kenpo on the other hand is a little different. Kenpo has usually advertised its self as a self defense art well suited for a surprise attack or to protect yourself during an unavoidable altercation. The general attitude is to train to survive the initial attack while you maneuver to a position that will permit the quick end of the altercation with the tables basically being turned on the one who surprise attacked now finding the perceived easy prey to be the dragon (wisdom and experience) that overcomes the tiger (strength and aggression) and in recent decades since it made its way to the United States it has become infamous for advocating individual, free thinkers who like to question everything and encourages creativity over blindly following tradition. Kenpo favors attacking vital areas like the eyes, throat and groin so the kind of people that tend to gravitate toward it are people who are not very powerful to begin with and are looking for a way to turn the tables on an attacker should violence be unavoidable. The kind of person who would devote years of their life to a "self defense" obsessed system like Kenpo is someone who would not willingly desire to fight others but likely had their share of having to protect their own life many times, becoming fully aware of the dangers of violence they may feel indebted to Kenpo for giving them the skill to survive such altercations and now pursue it in order to pass it down to the next generation and to give back to the art that saved them so many times. Such a person is unlikely to desire to get into a cage and fight full contact, fearful not just of the potential injuries that may happen to them but also fearful of the nearly reflexive responses they have ingrained that would cause them to violate the rules despite their best efforts.

Their are of course exceptions to the rule, their are as you well know Kenpo people and schools that are entirely devoted to competitive fighting with people from other martial arts so naturally they practice against the kinds of attacks and the kinds of fighters they will be facing. That means that much of the self-defense focused stuff is neglected, deleted or learned only as a side amusement and the attention is more on the conditioning and moves that are permitted in the venue they wish to compete in. The interesting thing that is happening these days with the popularity of the UFC is that more people are mimicking or having received some training in BJJ and MT just as when Kenpo came to the United States it was common to have counters for boxing, wrestling and Shotokan Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Judo because that was the common norm. Now I see Kenpo innovators working counters for BJJ take downs and submissions and MT combinations. Their are also Kenpo people that have moved in the opposite direction instead of going self defense to sport they went from self-defense to military combat, specializing in the knife.

When you try to fit everyone into categories it can be rather futile even this is just a generic way to explain that martial arts are not a one size fits all deal, people gravitate toward what they care about.

with all the respect, the too lethal for mma is basically just an excuse.

back in the nhb, groin strikes were legal, throat strikes are still legal.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

It is a lot easier to throw rapid, powerful strikes with your feet planted. Think about how fast you can throw burnout strikes on Thai Pads while planted, even though you don't really spar or fight like that.

I think Kempo, like WC, imagines a self defense situation where you choose to hit first against a threatening person standing in front of you, and you go off.

Kick boxers move around and counter strike too much to forgo head movement and defense while you unleash a flurry.

This is a very good observation, I hope this does not sound condescending but imagine a self-defense situation where a guy is watching you head toward your car late one night and he decides he is going to beat you to knock you out and take your jacket. So he comes up on you and suddenly starts to bounce on the balls of his feet and circles you throwing a few uncommitted "feelers" looking for an opening to knock you out. In that case while he was circling to the right the Kenpo guy went left, got in his car and went home. In most self defense altercations the aggressor is rather devoted to the idea of closing the distance as quickly as possible even if it means eating a punch or two as long as he can "break your face" or "rip your head off" the attitude initially is like a tiger attacking a rabbit so for the Kenpo practitioner dropping into a rooted stance while unleashing and bursting through the attacker makes sense, if the enemy moves away the well trained Kenpo practitioner will either run them down before they regain their center or will use the opportunity to escape and if the enemy rushes them again they will again repeat. The ultimate goal is to make it home to your loved ones alive not to engage in the kind of street fight were two people circle each with their shirts off trying to prove who is the more macho tough guy.

In the Military interpretation they train entries to throw off the skeletal alignment of the enemy and attack the nearest targets working their way through the spine often using a blade as they do it so right from the get go they are depriving the enemy of mobility.

As a guy who enjoyed having matches with other martial artists I quickly learned that if my Kenpo was going to be any use in that fun venue I would have to learn to keep the opponent in the "trapping range" and that often meant tying them up with a clinch or trapping their lead leg before "ripping" the term we use for the execution of those rapid striking combinations. I had the most difficult time with the most mobile and level changing mofos, if they were better at moving around than I was at stalling them up, I ended up playing the bait and wait game until they would commit.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

I'm not defending them. I think their main use is for sucker punching people, not for fighting.

This is actually very true with Kenpo, it was unique from Karate in that it did advocate hitting firstist with the mostest and specifically the Kenpo we are most used to in the USA comes from a Kenpo developed by instructors who worked in or fought alot in the red light district, what I mean is that it is a little known fact that some of the famous Kenpo experts in Hawaii that taught the art to the people that brought in to the mainland worked in brothels and collected debts and had ties to criminal organizations. It was a far cry removed from the more traditional spiritual links of the past.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

with all the respect, the too lethal for mma is basically just an excuse.

back in the nhb, groin strikes are legal, throat strikes are still legal.

I am not talking about it being too lethal I am talking about the psychology of the individual that would gravitate and devote themselves to a system like Kenpo to the degree that they would attain a high level of skill with it, such people are unlikely to motivated to get into a cage. Their are exceptions and I know and have trained with some of those exceptions but it is not the norm.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I am not talking about it being too lethal I am talking about the psychology of the individual that would gravitate and devote themselves to a system like Kenpo to the degree that they would attain a high level of skill with it, such people are unlikely to motivated to get into a cage. Their are exceptions and I know and have trained with some of those exceptions but it is not the norm.

do you think such people will have success proving kenpo in the cage?

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

do you think such people will have success proving kenpo in the cage?

I honestly don't know or well maybe I do know... they wont be successful until they surpass the conditioning that the best of MT undergo and they gain a fluency dealing with the most commonly successful attacks in the venue they wish to dominate, they have to really want it, it can't just be something they are doing to prove kenpo, kenpo does not need them to prove it because in the entire history of Kenpo never once made any claims... people make claims... they have to approach it as wanting to prove themselves in that venue, kind of like when a young man goes to his first war and he is really nervous and wondering if he going to make it home alive but then daily exposure to war and acceptance takes place of the reality and when they get home a part them longs to return to battle again for in the battle, so close to death that they could taste its sour breath they felt most alive. If they go in their like the young man to prove something to others they wont do very well but after they accept it for its reality and if it makes them feel alive, only then do I think they will love it enough to dominate at it.

 

[SummerStriker]

I thought Chuck Liddell proved Kenpo.