how much grappling in Kenpo karate

In Dance of Death, the introductory idea is that the opponent throws a committed punch to the practitioner's head. The punch is slipped with footwork taking the practitioner in closer to the puncher but along the outside of the punch, a 45 degree step found in many martial arts that use triangle footwork, additionally a parry/block at the elbow is used to keep from being tracked and disturb the puncher's balance at the same time a strike with the ridge of the hand is executed to the groin. Now if we just stop their and play with that idea in sparring, slip to the outside of a punch and strike the opponent in the groin, their is no reason why that is not something a decent fighter could repeatedly pull off. The requirement is the perceptual speed to detect a committed punch, good footwork and head/body movement to slip the punch while closing the gap and the strike to the groin comes easy as it is the natural motion of swinging our arms when we walk.

What else is in Dance of Death, catching a leg near the knee, that can happen, happens all the time during MT matches, so you have this leg captured and your throw an elbow strike with the intention of knocking the opponent down. What does that really require, your on your two legs your opponent is on one leg, if you have drilled your elbows and can get some power out of them, knocking someone on their arse with you elbow strike when you have captured a leg near the knee and are thus close enough to do it, not much of a big deal really. I'm sure someone can play around with that and get good at pulling it off consistently.

So what else is in Dance of Death, OK you have the opponent on their back and you have control of one leg, yes you could do many different options from there but instead you attack the groin and sharply twist the opponents ankle, if they don't roll with it, their goes an ankle but if they roll over with it as intended you have them on their stomach and the idea of the technique and where it gets its name Dance of Death comes in, your going to stomp all over him, aiming for his spine especially the back of his neck and maybe kick his teeth in. Is impractical or illogical to force an enemy from his back to his stomach using his ankle joint for motivation? No, its a fairly straight forward movement, Do you run the risk of being swept or having your leg locked when your holding the opponent by their ankle and standing between their legs? Yes, and someone who has a good understanding of those dangers can show you how to minimize the chances of that happening by controlling the hips and free leg for that instant that your twisting the ankle opponent. So again nothing within that portion of the technique is impossible to do.

Stomping an opponent who is on their stomach or kicking a fallen opponent, these things happen all the time in fights and are certainly not impossible to do.

So the only problem with the entire technique Dance of Death is that Kenpo guys are demonstrating it in a continuous flow against a compliant partner which is giving people the impression that in a fight the Kenpo guy is going to try and work that same sequence in its totality, exactly as shown but only a brain-washed, commercial Kenpoist who learned Kenpo in a McDojo by a teacher who sold him fake confidence as a result of only memorizing choreography without any additional practice to develop application would think that.


Time would have to be spent slipping punches, Time would have to be spent developing footwork, Time would have to be spent catching or capturing the leg, time would have to be spent developing the power in elbow strikes, time would have to be spent developing the perceptual speed to read a hard fast punch. Time would have to be spent working to avoid the counter actions that will occur when your holding a guy by the ankle who is on his back, sweeps, the up-kick, leg locks and some time will have to be spent on the accuracy and power of your stomps so you can better target the fallen opponent's spine and neck, the technique as developed and explained by the founder was nothing more than an introduction to these aspects, the starting point in the ideal phase with the training partner allowing you to get the feel of each part so that you could eventually reach the level where you can pull off these various parts on a resisting opponent and that is going to go hand and hand with so many other techniques, for example their are two other techniques that go along with this one that allow you to change the entry depending on how the opponent guards themselves, if they guard low you end up going high with a choke or to the middle with a hammering combination each of which is never designed to be used from a thinking standpoint but rather ingrained to the degree that while your engaged with an aggressive enemy it spontaneously triggers from being in the right position in an appropriate environment. Your not searching your Rolodex of memory for which of the 154 techniques to use, your just keeping your awareness on the environment including your opponent and the training and hard work you put in does the rest, your basically on auto-pilot even if you are moving in with intent to knock the opponent out.

Im not sure if I you agree or not with me.

My point, going through all the techniques, defense for this, attack for this denfense for X and X situation, is pretty much useless. I think we agree that when the breaks out, its youre training at punching and kicking which will save your asss (in case you are not a grappler) not the repetitions you have put in the secuences of each technique.

are we in the same boat?
 
You can and should isolate every part of a Kenpo technique and develop the required attributes to make each part work in and of its self on a moving and resisting opponent only then will the technique have real value, to come up with good What If answers during the What If phase of instruction requires a realistic understanding of the ways that each part can be countered and as we deal with each of these counters we grow in understanding and skill, lastly we need to take it to the fully spontaneous level and formulate answers with the totality of our art against a skilled fighter and only if we do that all the time will our Kenpo be what the founder envisioned. I don't blame those who think Kenpo is a joke based on the YouTube videos and the way that the Commercial Kenpo world trains.
 
Im not sure if I you agree or not with me.

My point, going through all the techniques, defense for this, attack for this denfense for X and X situation, is pretty much useless. I think we agree that when the breaks out, its youre training at punching and kicking which will save your asss (in case you are not a grappler) not the repetitions you have put in the secuences of each technique.

are we in the same boat?

I agree with you to a point but I am trying to explain to you and others that since the purpose of a progressive system is to take someone who is not familiar with violence and teach them step by step their has to be a starting point and their has to be examples on which to lay the lessons that really matter on. Their are other approaches but we all have to start somewhere. The ideal phase techniques are a part of the starting point.
 
Not even remotely the same, if you mean serials of tenchiquws which lead to let's say a flashy back take, yeah there are some, still people pull it on people resisting opponents... If you mean you have to memorize many steps to perform a technique, such as grab here here there and here put your foot here and your head here, then yeah somwhow, many instructors lack the hability to teach the concept and reason behind the txhbique, once you understand the concepts, its quite easier to remember the techniques... The thing is, you can test them live and see why the heck isn't working, you'll figure it out why is it and why isn't it with time.


You're missing my point, which was that in commercial BJJ gyms too much time is spent learning new materiel rather than rolling or drilling what is already known.

Maybe its different where you train?
 
You're missing my point, which was that in commercial BJJ gyms too much time is spent learning new materiel rather than rolling or drilling what is already known.

Maybe its different where you train?

I don't know what you mean by new material... If you are training in a sport bjj gym, new stuff comes out all the times and you have to keep up with it. Specially in Th gi... If you mean bjj for Mma or fighting, basic stuff is all it works, but to my knowledge, most schools at least roll for half the class. My class is divide in 15 to 20 mins warm up (which is done by drilling) then 1 or 2 techniques, and 45 minutes of rolling... Is that what your talking about? Not enough rolling at your gym?
 
I agree with you to a point but I am trying to explain to you and others that since the purpose of a progressive system is to take someone who is not familiar with violence and teach them step by step their has to be a starting point and their has to be examples on which to lay the lessons that really matter on. Their are other approaches but we all have to start somewhere. The ideal phase techniques are a part of the starting point.


Why not just hit pads, do some shadow boxing and light sparring? I don't see the appeal of Kenpo compared to Mauy Thai.
 
I don't know what you mean by new material... If you are training in a sport bjj gym, new stuff comes out all the times and you have to keep up with it. Specially in Th gi... If you mean bjj for Mma or fighting, basic stuff is all it works, but to my knowledge, most schools at least roll for half the class. My class is divide in 15 to 20 mins warm up (which is done by drilling) then 1 or 2 techniques, and 45 minutes of rolling... Is that what your talking about? Not enough rolling at your gym?

Yeah that sounds like a better structure than what im used to. However its different than what is common here in my area.
 
Why not just hit pads, do some shadow boxing and light sparring? I don't see the appeal of Kenpo compared to Mauy Thai.

Don't you do sparring drills and techniques in Muay Thai? I always had teachers that were very specific about how to enter this clinch or break that clinch.

We'd do drills like, "the opponent steps in and throws a 1-2-1. Slip the one while left kicking, either the first or last." Shit like that.

Muay Thai is a fighting art, so the drills are more useful in a sparring situation, but it is basically the same thing as a kenpo self defense move. I've had kenpo classes where people really came at you during the defense moves. It wasn't that realistic to a fight, but it was hard.

So if you don't spar a lot, how would you know the difference? There are still MMA fans that watch every UFC and think Bruce Lee would totally wreck with kung fu.
 
Don't you do sparring drills and techniques in Muay Thai? I always had teachers that were very specific about how to enter this clinch or break that clinch.

We'd do drills like, "the opponent steps in and throws a 1-2-1. Slip the one while left kicking, either the first or last." Shit like that.

Muay Thai is a fighting art, so the drills are more useful in a sparring situation, but it is basically the same thing as a kenpo self defense move. I've had kenpo classes where people really came at you during the defense moves. It wasn't that realistic to a fight, but it was hard.

So if you don't spar a lot, how would you know the difference? There are still MMA fans that watch every UFC and think Bruce Lee would totally wreck with kung fu.

Man come on... Hitting pads is not the same as doing sd techniques... Hitting 1234 combos is not the same as doing falcon of forces...
 
Man come on... Hitting pads is not the same as doing sd techniques... Hitting 1234 combos is not the same as doing falcon of forces...

In kick boxing and Muay Thai or MMA classes, we wouldn't always hit pads. We would put on gloves and do set techniques.

For example: the opponent steps forward and throws a 1-2 and steps out while throwing a 1.

You respond by slipping the first or last 1 while throwing a head kick. Another technique would be stepping out to kick the leg on the step in. Another is to throw a side kick when they step out. Another would be pivoting off the 2 and counter hitting.

Some of them were fancy. There were a couple of guys that liked to practice evading leg kicks from unmatched leads by switching their stances and counter hitting with spinning hook kicks. They could do it for real, at full speed and against strangers, but they practiced it compliantly with one another.

The difference between these and what I did in Kenpo is in fighting classes, we would use conventional combat sport form and make an effort to strike cleanly at the targets, relying on the defender to protect themselves. We would ramp these drills up to nearly full speed, sometimes striking the body with greater than sparring level power. We could then do these moves while sparring.

I had my nose bloodied more than once doing these drills and I considered it my fault. We weren't using bad intentions, feinting or breaking rhythm in order to make hits, but we weren't missing on purpose either.

They were in all ways, compliant partner drills. The difference is in the intensity and form of the attack, the usefulness of the defense, and the actual impacts made between the people practicing. People in Kenpo don't fight enough, so when they correct themselves or make new moves, it is based on taste rather than truth.

The form of the drills is basically the same.
 
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In kick boxing and Muay Thai or MMA classes, we wouldn't always hit pads. We would put on gloves and do set techniques.

For example: the opponent steps forward and throws a 1-2 and steps out while throwing a 1.

You respond by slipping the first or last 1 while throwing a head kick. Another technique would be stepping out to kick the leg on the step in. Another is to throw a side kick when they step out. Another would be pivoting off the 2 and counter hitting.

Some of them were fancy. There were a couple of guys that liked to practice evading leg kicks from unmatched leads by switching their stances and counter hitting with spinning hook kicks. They could do it for real, at full speed and against strangers, but they practiced it compliantly with one another.

The difference between these and what I did in Kenpo is in fighting classes, we would use conventional combat sport form and make an effort to strike cleanly at the targets, relying on the defender to protect themselves. We would ramp these drills up to nearly full speed, sometimes striking the body with greater than sparring level power. We could then do these moves while sparring.

I had my nose bloodied more than once doing these drills and I considered it my fault. We weren't using bad intentions, feinting or breaking rhythm in order to make hits, but we weren't missing on purpose either.

They were in all ways, compliant partner drills. The difference is in the intensity and form of the attack, the usefulness of the defense, and the actual impacts made between the people practicing. People in Kenpo don't fight enough, so when they correct themselves or make new moves, it is based on taste rather than truth.

The form of the drills is basically the same.

bro you are talking about 1 counter vs 1 move, which is fine, im talkng about this...



thats not the same as hitting pads my friend.
 
bro you are talking about 1 counter vs 1 move, which is fine, im talkng about this...



thats not the same as hitting pads my friend.


I don't think I meant to say anything was like hitting pads but hitting pads.
 
I'm infinitely intrigued by all the ashida kim type fuckheads. Ashida kim, Frank dux, etc.

Like some people are fascinated by serial killers. It's martial arts weirdos for me instead.

same bro, i love watching the "chi" people where they throw it in a ball energy
 
I'm infinitely intrigued by all the ashida kim type fuckheads. Ashida kim, Frank dux, etc.

Like some people are fascinated by serial killers. It's martial arts weirdos for me instead.

This guy though, i spent like a good chunk of the evening watching and reading his bs... Holy fuck he's taken the word bullshido to a whole new level...
 
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