How Frequently Would You Have To Get Promoted Before Considering A Place A McDojo?

Shin said McDojo-ism is a whole different area which is true. While I don't like a belting system, parents do. And thats the targeted audience: people who don't know about the industry but enroll their kids for extracurricular activity. Obv they want to see milestones in their "investment".

It is also good to have goals. I think the belt is often overemphasized. Perhaps they should create a tab or a patch for those who have proven themselves in certain levels of fighting?

Hear me out

You know how outlaw mcs have patches for members who have proven themselves or done certain things? The dojos could implement a similar patch concept. You've fought x amount of kumite, you've done full contact kumite, you conveyed the bunkai or self defense application of each kata etc.
 
I did TKD growing up and generally if you stuck with it and came to each "advancement test" you'd be a black belt within 3 years. We had quite a few kids who started at age 5 and were blackbelts by the time they were 8-9 years old. It was a god damned joke and absurd to see these kids who had no coordination at all walking around with a blackbelt. 100% McDojo all the way and a waste of money in every aspect.

Now what if that kid can really fight? I understand that's the outlier, and the kid would have to be older. Say the "kid" is 14 years old but can competently fight against grown men? Would you be okay with that scenario, even if they were still growing and perhaps a tad immature? Would you be comfortable being grown and learning from them as a black belt?
 
What are the norms for the dojos they came from? Some guys' success is intrinsic, and they were going to be good or great no matter where they went.

They all came from Tiger Schumann which was a karate school turned MMA school. They have a student to instructor to franchisee pipeline for people that stick to it. So a kid taking a Karate class in the 80's may own an MMA gym today.

But more interesting, Schumann started as a competitive karate fighter so when MMA started blowing up in the mid 2000s he started a fight team. In a few years he had Pace, Gaudinot, Good, Hall, and Rivera.

I've been to local NY kickboxing shows where TS guys are hanging with or beating up Longo and Nurse guys. I've seen their kids competing successfully at Naga tournaments around here too.

But... You walk into those schools on any given day and there will be an 8 year old wearing a black belt. Like he's mastered his craft and next he's going to learn to ride a bike. It's weird.
 
It is also good to have goals. I think the belt is often overemphasized. Perhaps they should create a tab or a patch for those who have proven themselves in certain levels of fighting?

Hear me out

You know how outlaw mcs have patches for members who have proven themselves or done certain things? The dojos could implement a similar patch concept. You've fought x amount of kumite, you've done full contact kumite, you conveyed the bunkai or self defense application of each kata etc.
As I said before, there's nothing wrong with an internalized system for a gym, its just kept within bounds. Gym I was at before did this. Gave out patches to sew onto shorts, I sewed mine onto a jacket. It was you get one when you win at a BJJ tourney, one when you win a sanctioned MT/KB fight, one when you won in ammy MMA. Highest one when you turn pro in MMA. No hierarchical order, you get any when you hit the requirement. The issue is, issuing rank that's part of the governing body and it gets diluted due to business goals
 
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i agree with FightGuyOpenMind in that belts are overemphasized, but i guess the other benefit is they help at tournaments getting people with similar experience against each other.
 
i agree with FightGuyOpenMind in that belts are overemphasized, but i guess the other benefit is they help at tournaments getting people with similar experience against each other.
no-gi divisions have beginner, intermediate, and adv.
 
Now what if that kid can really fight? I understand that's the outlier, and the kid would have to be older. Say the "kid" is 14 years old but can competently fight against grown men? Would you be okay with that scenario, even if they were still growing and perhaps a tad immature? Would you be comfortable being grown and learning from them as a black belt?

We had maybe 1 or 2 students who were amazingly coordinated and could do some awesome "Van-Damme" type stuff in terms of flying spin kicks, etc. I wouldn't bet on them to be able to defend themselves against any normal sized adult. All the sparring we ever did was basically point fighting and while not a total waste of time there was never any real sparring / free-fighting to actually get people comfortable with fighting.

When it comes to 14 year olds who can competently fight grown men those are few and far between even in serious dojo's / schools. At a McDojo...not a chance in hell.
 
mcdojos have their place and I think they can be a good thing, and kids can learn a good foundation and gain flexibility, and branch out to a combat sport when they get a little older. The problem with McDojos is when they false advertise MMA, Muay Thai, competition, etc.

as mentioned earlier, its a extracurricular activity for the kids, much like "soccer" and what not. From a business perspective, having a kids "mcdojo" program is a good way to generate extra income.
 
I understand people advance at different rates than others. However, I have seen guys be white belts with no fight experience become "advanced belts" (brown, black) in a couple of years.

I can understand it if you have previous fight experience, coming from a different but similar style, or are just a stud of an athlete.

However, do you believe a guy or gal starting from scratch should be allowed to advance that quickly (about 2 years) to brown or black belt level? How does this reflect on the school itself, the instructor, and the validity of their rank?

This is not meant to bash anyone's achievements, however, what are your thoughts on belt advancement. What is acceptable versus what is a sign of a black belt factory?

Thoughts?

The standard time it takes in most styles of Karate to get from white to black belt is about 3 to 5 years. That's if you train consistently and attend every single session without fail.

Usually it takes about 5 years and above to reach a black belt on average (provided you grade at all available times and pass them). It's not unusual or uncommon for students to fail some gradings.

Most gradings will test your forms, techniques, conditioning/fitness and then your ability with sparring (usually multiple rounds with fresh opponents based on belt grading) up until the belt you're grading for.

You have to pass all those things to get to the next belt grading.

With Mcdojo's those standards are significantly eased. If someone is getting from white to brown belt in 2 years that should be a cause for concern. Unless you have prior martial arts experience or fight experience - it's almost unheard of to go from white to brown in that amount of time.


As far as belt advancement and gradings go. I actually think belts are a good way of measuring progress/experience and also a great way for instructors to visually identify people's experience levels when matching students up for sparring or when doing drills/conditioning work (or even keeping an eye on their progress).

I think as well belts are a great way for students of all ages - to visually reach their goals in a step by step manner. Small step by step progress. Also the belt system is a good way to standardize and categorize where students are in their level of progression. It's great for building consistency in any sort of teaching program.

I mean think about school - it's tiered by grade/year level for a good reason. That's to ensure a consistency in everyone's teaching - making sure everyone is at more or less the same place.

If you didn't have a belt program - how consistent would you be able to measure students level of progression/experience? You'd be relying on instinct & your own eyes to measure progress - and as we know that's a very poor way of maintaining consistent quality standards with all your students.

It's why we have tests for children to make sure that they are at a certain standard before they move on. The belt system is just a more physical representation of this.
 
The standard time it takes in most styles of Karate to get from white to black belt is about 3 to 5 years. That's if you train consistently and attend every single session without fail.

Usually it takes about 5 years and above to reach a black belt on average (provided you grade at all available times and pass them). It's not unusual or uncommon for students to fail some gradings.

Most gradings will test your forms, techniques, conditioning/fitness and then your ability with sparring (usually multiple rounds with fresh opponents based on belt grading) up until the belt you're grading for.

You have to pass all those things to get to the next belt grading.

With Mcdojo's those standards are significantly eased. If someone is getting from white to brown belt in 2 years that should be a cause for concern. Unless you have prior martial arts experience or fight experience - it's almost unheard of to go from white to brown in that amount of time.


As far as belt advancement and gradings go. I actually think belts are a good way of measuring progress/experience and also a great way for instructors to visually identify people's experience levels when matching students up for sparring or when doing drills/conditioning work (or even keeping an eye on their progress).

I think as well belts are a great way for students of all ages - to visually reach their goals in a step by step manner. Small step by step progress. Also the belt system is a good way to standardize and categorize where students are in their level of progression. It's great for building consistency in any sort of teaching program.

I mean think about school - it's tiered by grade/year level for a good reason. That's to ensure a consistency in everyone's teaching - making sure everyone is at more or less the same place.

If you didn't have a belt program - how consistent would you be able to measure students level of progression/experience? You'd be relying on instinct & your own eyes to measure progress - and as we know that's a very poor way of maintaining consistent quality standards with all your students.

It's why we have tests for children to make sure that they are at a certain standard before they move on. The belt system is just a more physical representation of this.

Thank you for that input. It was very well thought out, and informative.

Questions for you: What do you think the issue is in many situations today? Do you think it is perhaps because Karate seems to be so splintered with multiple associations, and federations around the world. Do you think having a singular governing body would prevent issues of "McDojos"?
 
10th degree dan in 3 months sounds about right.
 
Thank you for that input. It was very well thought out, and informative.

Questions for you: What do you think the issue is in many situations today? Do you think it is perhaps because Karate seems to be so splintered with multiple associations, and federations around the world. Do you think having a singular governing body would prevent issues of "McDojos"?


Yes lots of splintering. No overall regulative or singular governing body to ensure quality standards are maintained.

Too many organisations with very differing goals. Some are more sports focused, some self defense focused and some neither (financial or purely political).

I think MMA in particular has given a kick up the boot for most TMA's. Nowadays you have to provide realistic quality maintained training or otherwise lose your business.

A lot of mcdojo's got away with shitty standards for a long time because there was no check/balances in place for them - and because most of them aren't regulated or apart of reputable organisations or bodies - there was no repercussions for having below average standards. In fact for many those low standards were a financial boon for most of them.

Now they can't get away with it no more. Even here in the UK - there's a lot less mcdojo's than there were 15 years ago. Most of them have gone out of business.
 
Its usually a case of inflation.

An old training partner of mine said his coach used to say, if you're a blue belt here, you should be a blue belt everywhere.

Brown or black, probably not unless they're really top tier. I'm not a fan of a belting system personally, it creates alot of crap with and muddles the waters. Competitive blue is going to be better than a hobbyist purple. But in the eye of the beholder, its still their colored rank. It gets even more complicated when you have someone who's had decades of competing in wrestling, on the varsity team, then start out in BJJ. Now he/she is obv gonna be a white belt, but really they're blue plus due to years of grappling exp. Them being promoted to blue faster than the traditional 2-3 year mark rubs those the wrong way who have started BJJ for a couple of years and finally got their blue.

I know its always good to give people a visual aid of their progress, because when you work hard, and have nothing to show for it does get you down sometimes, but thats where competing comes in. To me is the true identifier. I have my own ideas of what constitutes as a belt rank, some have said I'm off, but what I think personally. I feel having 10 sanctioned fights makes you a real "black belt". Some have said 3 is probably there. I don't agree with that.

Now if a gym has an internal rank eg. colored shorts, patches, etc. that they specifically keep within their own gym, thats cool. But if you're getting "belted" in the same global system as everyone else, then its a problem with rapid promotion.
Why do you think 10 fights is required? Seems too much to me, and 3 - 5 is in my opinion enough.
 
Why do you think 10 fights is required? Seems too much to me, and 3 - 5 is in my opinion enough.
For me black belt has always been the mark for top rank in meaning. Aside from dan ranks.

Fights here are categorized as C, B, A, open. C being the lowest with 0-3 fights and A being up to 10. So for me a-class is up there so that's a BB equivlant for me
 
For me black belt has always been the mark for top rank in meaning. Aside from dan ranks.

Fights here are categorized as C, B, A, open. C being the lowest with 0-3 fights and A being up to 10. So for me a-class is up there so that's a BB equivlant for me
I see, makes good sense.
Some people like to teach and not fight though. Should they not earn belts as well?
Its an interesting topic of, should we keep belts and competition results separated or make them related.
 
I see, makes good sense.
Some people like to teach and not fight though. Should they not earn belts as well?
Its an interesting topic of, should we keep belts and competition results separated or make them related.
Ive never really thought about that in detail.

Personally for me, I think coaches should have competition exp. And not come off without any. Some don't agree with this, but this is my thoughts about it.

For coaching, certification of a government body would be better than multiple belts. I get that belts serve that purpose by design, but too many ruins it for me. Coaching ranks, I look at more from a drivers license POV than belt system. 1-3.
 
literally none of this means a thing if you have no clue about how to run a business.

you could be the next bruce lee and it doesnt mean shit if you cannot bring people through the doors.
 
That makes sense. I meant more so in a striking art such as karate, TKD, etc. Any thoughts on that scenario?
Those places usually have curriculums. If you can do X at a certain level then you're ready for the next belt.

In those scenarios, you should get promoted in line with your ability.

Attaching artificial time limits is probably more McDojo-ish than frequent promotions because someone is moving through the curriculum quickly.

To my knowledge, sports like boxing weigh your ability. If you're good enough for something, you move on to learning it. They don't say "Jim has only been training here for 14 months therefore I can't teach him how to do X or Y, even though he's capable of learning it and applying it."
 
Those places usually have curriculums. If you can do X at a certain level then you're ready for the next belt.

In those scenarios, you should get promoted in line with your ability.

Attaching artificial time limits is probably more McDojo-ish than frequent promotions because someone is moving through the curriculum quickly.

To my knowledge, sports like boxing weigh your ability. If you're good enough for something, you move on to learning it. They don't say "Jim has only been training here for 14 months therefore I can't teach him how to do X or Y, even though he's capable of learning it and applying it."

I agree, you should get promoted in line with your ability. When it comes to belt grade systems, there doesn't appear to be universal standardization. Some places will list belt requirements on their websites and say you are eligible for testing after being a grade for a certain period of time. I've known Isshinryu dojos to do this.

Other places I've come across test every three months. Some students will be up for promotion, some will not (sensei discretion). I've known Shotokan dojos to do this.

I think out of many of the belt grade systems Judo is probably the most uniform that I've come across. USJF does a lot of grade testing at shiais. You're basically being judged by black belts and they'll promote you based on performance. The reason I think that they are the most standardized is because the IJF appears to be tight knit on everything. Judo can be very political, and everybody knows everybody.

I have no knowledge of TKD.
 
I agree, you should get promoted in line with your ability. When it comes to belt grade systems, there doesn't appear to be universal standardization. Some places will list belt requirements on their websites and say you are eligible for testing after being a grade for a certain period of time. I've known Isshinryu dojos to do this.

Other places I've come across test every three months. Some students will be up for promotion, some will not (sensei discretion). I've known Shotokan dojos to do this.

I think out of many of the belt grade systems Judo is probably the most uniform that I've come across. USJF does a lot of grade testing at shiais. You're basically being judged by black belts and they'll promote you based on performance. The reason I think that they are the most standardized is because the IJF appears to be tight knit on everything. Judo can be very political, and everybody knows everybody.

I have no knowledge of TKD.

I think that's more a reflection of people not understanding what karate belts represent, not a problem with the local systems themselves. The belts below black don't have much formal meaning. It's just a way to represent and measure progress towards a more uniform standard - blackbelt.

So, if Dojo A requires 14 steps to get there and Dojo B requires 10 but the end result is the same basic level of proficiency then there's no problem. The point to remember is that in something like karate, the black belt isn't a signal of mastery. It's signal of basics.

If this was school, people can pass an Algebra class with different levels of proficiency. Some students would have mastered every nuance and some students would have only mastered the core requirements. Both would be students who understand and can basic algebra. That one kid mastered the basics in 10 weeks and the other kid required 15 weeks wouldn't change that either.

The only time you have a problem is when the person who is supposed to have a certain competency in the basics does not have it. Then you have a teaching problem.
 
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