Social Hondurans vs Haitians, the underlying causes of xenophobia.

Rod1

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Im really bad at making threads but this is an interesting event.

Since the caravan was announced until they reached TJ mexicans have gone from "Welcome latinamerican brothers" to "Mexico first, get the fuck out".

It would be a very long thread to post all the things that the Hondurans have done or allegedly done to make Mexicans feel that these individuals should be kicked out, but overall it seems that the public opinion is incredibly against them.

The reason why i made this thread however is because its not the first wave that crashed at the northern border after America tightened its security up, the first wave was Haitians, and about 5,000 or more were stranded in northern Mexico.

These people however were seen first as a potential burden, but in 2 years Haitians have become an example of a polite, well mannered, hard working people, to a point where they gained the respect of the Mexican people and nobody wants them gone.

I made this thread after i found an overwhelmingly positive facebook post comparing Hondurans to Haitians.

46285851_348946212505582_5775087080027717632_n.jpg


¿Alguien recuerda cómo llegaron los haitianos a Tijuana?
Llegaron asustados, tristes, llegaron pidiendo asilo, llegaron pidiendo caridad, no exigían nada, ellos rogaban un trabajo, ellos pedían humanidad.


Does someone remembers when Haitians came to Tijuana?
They came scared, sad, asking for asylum, asking for help, they didnt demanded anything, they begged for a job, they wanted human solidarity.

Tenían cargando grandes pesares sobre su espalda, el más grande de todos es que lo habían perdido TODO, incluso a su familia, aún así nunca pensaron en sentarse a descansar, le hicieron frentea la situación que tenían, y no la pensaron dos veces para vender en un semáforo, lavar platos en el puesto de carnitas, vender chicles, barrer calles... Y no dudes que alguno de ellos tuviera un doctorado o que fuese algún ingeniero en su natal Haití, aunque aquí ese papel no le sirvió de nada pues al igual que un indigente le tocó dormir en el pasto de palacio de gobierno, debajo de un puente o en la banqueta de algún establecimiento.

They came with great burdens, the biggest one was losing everything back home, even family, yet they didnt sit down to rest, and didnt thought it twice to sell (wares) at the stoplights, wash dishes at the carnitas stand, sell gums, sweet streets... and dont doubt that some of them may have had an higher education or was an engineer back at Haiti, but that degree didnt helped him here, they had to sleep in the streets like a homeless individual.

ELLOS JAMÁS se quejaron del trabajo que tuvieron que hacer, por el contrario miraban ésto como una oportunidad de oro, y la tomaban sin pensarlo, como si no se les fuera a presentar de nuevo, su intención no era invadir ni quitarle nada a nadie, su único propósito era sobrevivir.

They never complained about work, instead they saw work as a golden opportunity and took jobs without thinking, as if that was a one in a lifetime chance, their intention wasnt to invade or take from people, their purpose was to survive.

No se puede llegar con una una persona y exigirle caridad hacia ti
y mucho menos a un Mexicano, oye, es como ir al mandado y exigir que te regalen el litro de leche sólo porque no tienes ni un peso.


You cant go up to a person and demand charity, and even less a Mexican, its like going to the store and asking for a free liter of milk, just because you are broke.

El Mexicano es solidario, y la razón mas grande es que tú "Migrante" ya estás aquí, pero tampoco es tonto, como lo creen algunos países de por ahí... ¿Verdad que sí?.

Mexicans are solidary, and the biggest proof is that you are here, but he isnt dumb, like you guys think.

So i think xenophobia isnt necesarily about race or culture, and its more about people sharing your values.
 
So i think xenophobia isnt necesarily about race or culture, and its more about people sharing your values.

I don't think there's a very good case for this. Americans overwhelmingly opposed granting refuge to European Jews during the Holocaust. Likewise, we've seen an entire half of the country mobilized on scapegoating of Mexican illegal immigrants. Those are two groups with values that are incredible similar to those of white/conservative America. Mexicans have not only been a model minority group: they've deeply penetrated American culture. I think the successful fearmongering about Mexicans in the US kind of nixed your argument about the logic of xenophobia.
 
Make Mexico Great Again!! Build that wall and make Honduras pay for it.
 
m96jjd.jpg

I don't think there's a very good case for this. Americans overwhelmingly opposed granting refuge to European Jews during the Holocaust. Likewise, we've seen an entire half of the country mobilized on scapegoating of Mexican illegal immigrants. Those are two groups with values that are incredible similar to those of white/conservative America. Mexicans have not only been a model minority group: they've deeply penetrated American culture. I think the successful fearmongering about Mexicans in the US kind of nixed your argument about the logic of xenophobia.


{<diva} Most of the people coming over the border illegally are NOT Mexican. The are largely from other South American countries and even from different continents altogether. They could apply for refugee status in Mexico but chose to force their way in through two sovereign countries and spit all over their immigration laws and borders. Just saying that most of these ppl are not even Mexican and pointing out that these ppl are largely mad at the wrong brown people.
 
Im really bad at making threads but this is an interesting event.

Since the caravan was announced until they reached TJ mexicans have gone from "Welcome latinamerican brothers" to "Mexico first, get the fuck out".

It would be a very long thread to post all the things that the Hondurans have done or allegedly done to make Mexicans feel that these individuals should be kicked out, but overall it seems that the public opinion is incredibly against them.

The reason why i made this thread however is because its not the first wave that crashed at the northern border after America tightened its security up, the first wave was Haitians, and about 5,000 or more were stranded in northern Mexico.

These people however were seen first as a potential burden, but in 2 years Haitians have become an example of a polite, well mannered, hard working people, to a point where they gained the respect of the Mexican people and nobody wants them gone.

I made this thread after i found an overwhelmingly positive facebook post comparing Hondurans to Haitians.

46285851_348946212505582_5775087080027717632_n.jpg


¿Alguien recuerda cómo llegaron los haitianos a Tijuana?
Llegaron asustados, tristes, llegaron pidiendo asilo, llegaron pidiendo caridad, no exigían nada, ellos rogaban un trabajo, ellos pedían humanidad.


Does someone remembers when Haitians came to Tijuana?
They came scared, sad, asking for asylum, asking for help, they didnt demanded anything, they begged for a job, they wanted human solidarity.

Tenían cargando grandes pesares sobre su espalda, el más grande de todos es que lo habían perdido TODO, incluso a su familia, aún así nunca pensaron en sentarse a descansar, le hicieron frentea la situación que tenían, y no la pensaron dos veces para vender en un semáforo, lavar platos en el puesto de carnitas, vender chicles, barrer calles... Y no dudes que alguno de ellos tuviera un doctorado o que fuese algún ingeniero en su natal Haití, aunque aquí ese papel no le sirvió de nada pues al igual que un indigente le tocó dormir en el pasto de palacio de gobierno, debajo de un puente o en la banqueta de algún establecimiento.

They came with great burdens, the biggest one was losing everything back home, even family, yet they didnt sit down to rest, and didnt thought it twice to sell (wares) at the stoplights, wash dishes at the carnitas stand, sell gums, sweet streets... and dont doubt that some of them may have had an higher education or was an engineer back at Haiti, but that degree didnt helped him here, they had to sleep in the streets like a homeless individual.

ELLOS JAMÁS se quejaron del trabajo que tuvieron que hacer, por el contrario miraban ésto como una oportunidad de oro, y la tomaban sin pensarlo, como si no se les fuera a presentar de nuevo, su intención no era invadir ni quitarle nada a nadie, su único propósito era sobrevivir.

They never complained about work, instead they saw work as a golden opportunity and took jobs without thinking, as if that was a one in a lifetime chance, their intention wasnt to invade or take from people, their purpose was to survive.

No se puede llegar con una una persona y exigirle caridad hacia ti
y mucho menos a un Mexicano, oye, es como ir al mandado y exigir que te regalen el litro de leche sólo porque no tienes ni un peso.


You cant go up to a person and demand charity, and even less a Mexican, its like going to the store and asking for a free liter of milk, just because you are broke.

El Mexicano es solidario, y la razón mas grande es que tú "Migrante" ya estás aquí, pero tampoco es tonto, como lo creen algunos países de por ahí... ¿Verdad que sí?.

Mexicans are solidary, and the biggest proof is that you are here, but he isnt dumb, like you guys think.

So i think xenophobia isnt necesarily about race or culture, and its more about people sharing your values.
It’s good that Haitians are doing well. That doesn’t change the fact that nobody should be welcoming a guest who breaks in through a window to stay at your house. Whether refugee or guest, they must always knock on the front door and ask to be let in.

To allow the alternative is disastrous policy and has been proven so over and over.
 
Im really bad at making threads but this is an interesting event.

Since the caravan was announced until they reached TJ mexicans have gone from "Welcome latinamerican brothers" to "Mexico first, get the fuck out".

It would be a very long thread to post all the things that the Hondurans have done or allegedly done to make Mexicans feel that these individuals should be kicked out, but overall it seems that the public opinion is incredibly against them.

The reason why i made this thread however is because its not the first wave that crashed at the northern border after America tightened its security up, the first wave was Haitians, and about 5,000 or more were stranded in northern Mexico.

These people however were seen first as a potential burden, but in 2 years Haitians have become an example of a polite, well mannered, hard working people, to a point where they gained the respect of the Mexican people and nobody wants them gone.

I made this thread after i found an overwhelmingly positive facebook post comparing Hondurans to Haitians.

46285851_348946212505582_5775087080027717632_n.jpg


¿Alguien recuerda cómo llegaron los haitianos a Tijuana?
Llegaron asustados, tristes, llegaron pidiendo asilo, llegaron pidiendo caridad, no exigían nada, ellos rogaban un trabajo, ellos pedían humanidad.


Does someone remembers when Haitians came to Tijuana?
They came scared, sad, asking for asylum, asking for help, they didnt demanded anything, they begged for a job, they wanted human solidarity.

Tenían cargando grandes pesares sobre su espalda, el más grande de todos es que lo habían perdido TODO, incluso a su familia, aún así nunca pensaron en sentarse a descansar, le hicieron frentea la situación que tenían, y no la pensaron dos veces para vender en un semáforo, lavar platos en el puesto de carnitas, vender chicles, barrer calles... Y no dudes que alguno de ellos tuviera un doctorado o que fuese algún ingeniero en su natal Haití, aunque aquí ese papel no le sirvió de nada pues al igual que un indigente le tocó dormir en el pasto de palacio de gobierno, debajo de un puente o en la banqueta de algún establecimiento.

They came with great burdens, the biggest one was losing everything back home, even family, yet they didnt sit down to rest, and didnt thought it twice to sell (wares) at the stoplights, wash dishes at the carnitas stand, sell gums, sweet streets... and dont doubt that some of them may have had an higher education or was an engineer back at Haiti, but that degree didnt helped him here, they had to sleep in the streets like a homeless individual.

ELLOS JAMÁS se quejaron del trabajo que tuvieron que hacer, por el contrario miraban ésto como una oportunidad de oro, y la tomaban sin pensarlo, como si no se les fuera a presentar de nuevo, su intención no era invadir ni quitarle nada a nadie, su único propósito era sobrevivir.

They never complained about work, instead they saw work as a golden opportunity and took jobs without thinking, as if that was a one in a lifetime chance, their intention wasnt to invade or take from people, their purpose was to survive.

No se puede llegar con una una persona y exigirle caridad hacia ti
y mucho menos a un Mexicano, oye, es como ir al mandado y exigir que te regalen el litro de leche sólo porque no tienes ni un peso.


You cant go up to a person and demand charity, and even less a Mexican, its like going to the store and asking for a free liter of milk, just because you are broke.

El Mexicano es solidario, y la razón mas grande es que tú "Migrante" ya estás aquí, pero tampoco es tonto, como lo creen algunos países de por ahí... ¿Verdad que sí?.

Mexicans are solidary, and the biggest proof is that you are here, but he isnt dumb, like you guys think.

So i think xenophobia isnt necesarily about race or culture, and its more about people sharing your values.
welcome to the club
 
I don't think there's a very good case for this. Americans overwhelmingly opposed granting refuge to European Jews during the Holocaust. Likewise, we've seen an entire half of the country mobilized on scapegoating of Mexican illegal immigrants. Those are two groups with values that are incredible similar to those of white/conservative America. Mexicans have not only been a model minority group: they've deeply penetrated American culture. I think the successful fearmongering about Mexicans in the US kind of nixed your argument about the logic of xenophobia.

Nah, the breakdown in your counterargument is your attempt to conflate rallying against illegal immigration with being a general opposition to Mexican immigration. The US still allows massive amounts of legal immigration each year, with a large percentage of that coming from Mexico. Trump hasn't made any moves at all to reduce the number of Mexicans entering the US legally and doesn't appear to want to reduce that number. It is hard to show that it is something his base as a whole is clamoring for. It is not true that half the country has intensely anti-Mexican feelings.
 
Nah, the breakdown in your counterargument is your attempt to conflate rallying against illegal immigration with being a general opposition to Mexican immigration. The US still allows massive amounts of legal immigration each year, with a large percentage of that coming from Mexico. Trump hasn't made any moves at all to reduce the number of Mexicans entering the US legally and doesn't appear to want to reduce that number. It is hard to show that it is something his base as a whole is clamoring for. It is not true that half the country has intensely anti-Mexican feelings.

Wtf? Even if you discount Trump's rhetoric in opposing illegal immigration (saying that most of the undocumented immigrants coming from Mexico are murderers and rapists), he absolutely and unequivocally has scaled down legal immigration and restricted path to citizenship - drastically.

https://psmag.com/social-justice/how-trump-is-trying-to-reduce-legal-immigration
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article218876275.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/opinion/trump-legal-immigrants-reject.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/18/trump-legal-immigration-crackdown-legal-challenge
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/im...ts-limit-citizenship-legal-immigrants-n897931
https://www.afsc.org/blogs/news-and-commentary/trumps-attacks-legal-immigration-system-explained
 
Hondurans vs Hatians....eh I think Honduras takes it today vía crazier street gangs, but if we’re talking prime vs prime
L´Ouverture takes the Mayans 9/10 times unless of course Cecil Peoples is judging
 

I did not read all of your links, but I did read the article from NBC News. It doesn't support your claims at all. It did not state that this policy reduced the rate of immigration at all, but simply restricted a path to citizenship for immigrants who come to the US and jump onto welfare. Immigration =/= naturalization. In the context of @Rod1 's thread, hard work and self-sufficiency is what gained Haitian immigrants respect in Mexico. I'm assuming the point of the new legislation is to provide an incentive from relying on public charity as well.

Do any of your links provide data suggesting that the point of Trump's policy is to reduce immigration or that immigration rates have dropped as a result of the enactment of this policy?
 
It’s good that Haitians are doing well. That doesn’t change the fact that nobody should be welcoming a guest who breaks in through a window to stay at your house. Whether refugee or guest, they must always knock on the front door and ask to be let in.

To allow the alternative is disastrous policy and has been proven so over and over.
Is not walking up to any US.border, stepping foot on the ground and declaring yourself a refugee for consideration the front door?
 
Hondurans vs Hatians....eh I think Honduras takes it today vía crazier street gangs, but if we’re talking prime vs prime
L´Ouverture takes the Mayans 9/10 times unless of course Cecil Peoples is judging


There really needs to be a movie about Touissant overture.
 
I did not read all of your links, but I did read the article from NBC News. It doesn't support your claims at all. It did not state that this policy reduced the rate of immigration at all, but simply restricted a path to citizenship for immigrants who come to the US and jump onto welfare. Immigration =/= naturalization. In the context of @Rod1 's thread, hard work and self-sufficiency is what gained Haitian immigrants respect in Mexico. I'm assuming the point of the new legislation is to provide an incentive from relying on public charity as well.

I know - that's why I said "scaled down legal immigration and restricted path to citizenship."

Do any of your links provide data suggesting that the point of Trump's policy is to reduce immigration or that immigration rates have dropped as a result of the enactment of this policy?

Yes.

A White House proposal would slash legal immigration rates by 44 percent this year and result in 22 million fewer immigrants over the next five decades when compared to current law, according to a Cato Institute study released Monday.

At his postelection news conference, President Trump said of immigrants traveling to the United States, “I want them to come into the country, but they need to come in legally.” Yet newly released government data show that so far in 2018, the Trump administration is denying applications submitted to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services at a rate 37 percent higher than the Obama administration did in 2016.

This makes no sense: Depriving immigrants of legal immigration options works against the president’s stated goal of increasing economic growth.

A new analysis for the Cato Institute has found that the Department of Homeland Security rejected 11.3 percent of requests to the immigration agency, which include those for work permits, travel documents and status applications, based on family reunification, employment and other grounds, in the first nine months of 2018. This is the highest rate of denial on record and means that by the end of the year, the United States government will have rejected around 620,000 people — about 155,000 more than in 2016.

This increase in denials cannot be credited to an overall rise in applications. In fact, the total number of applications so far this year is 2 percent lower than in 2016. It could be that the higher denial rate is also discouraging some people from applying at all.

Reducing refugee admissions: President Trump initially suspended the refugee admissions program and subsequently reduced the maximum number of refugees that can be admitted into the United States from the previous ceiling of 110,000 to a mere 50,000 for 2017. In 2018, the administration reduced the number to 45,000
but the administration is not even on track to resettle that number - it will resettle perhaps 20,000 this year - thus undermining the progress of a vital humanitarian program. In September 2018, the administration indicated that it would reduce the cap further to just 30,000 for 2019 – the lowest since the program’s creation in 1980.


Slowing lawful immigration processes: What used to be straightforward application processes – like applying for a green card (permanent residency) and citizenship - have been dramatically slowed down and halted. The backlog of pending green card applications had increased by more than 35 percent by the end of 2017. A new mandated in-person interview for all applicants for employment-based immigration applications has increased processing time and slowed applications to a crawl
these slowdowns leave thousands of people seeking to naturalize as citizens or become lawful residents vulnerable and in a state of limbo. A new U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS) policy allows officers to outright deny any visa or green card application that is missing evidence or contains an error without giving applicants a chance to fix it. This could mean people with valid visas who are trying to renew could be placed in deportation proceedings.


Undermining asylum: The Trump administration has said it is criminally prosecuting asylum seekers who cross the border unlawfully between checkpoints, but border patrol agents are reportedly turning asylum seekers away at border check points - a violation of U.S. and international law. Together these policies make it more difficult to apply for asylum at a port of entry. Attorney General Jeff Sessions overturned precedent by making it almost impossible for people fleeing domestic and gang violence to find haven in the U.S. Sessions also worked to limit the due process of people in immigration proceedings and limiting immigration judges’ and asylum officers’ discretion and independence. Trump also issued an asylum ban that would block people who enter the U.S. between ports of entry from seeking asylum.

Hell, he's publicly lobbied to get rid of the diversity visa lottery.
 
Is not walking up to any US.border, stepping foot on the ground and declaring yourself a refugee for consideration the front door?
Yes - that’s fine as long as you go to a port or gateway of entry to do that.
 
Hell, he's publicly lobbied to get rid of the diversity visa lottery.

Yes, if you're talking scaled down path to citizenship, then Trump does certainly seem to be reducing that by making it difficult to become a citizen if you have been on US welfare.

I'm all for getting rid of the diversity lottery, but it isn't a huge number of VISAs every year in terms of total percentages, under 5% in 2016 if my math is right.

Legal immigration has been pretty consistent for over a decade now and has not dropped at all under Trump. The tables on the Cato study were suggesting massive declines due to not letting people bring in their parents and siblings and foreign born adult children in. Cato's assumption is that Trump is trying to decrease immigration, but it seems plain is that he is trying to institute greater control over immigration policy that is too driven by familial networking and even lotteries. I think that is sensible. Because Cato also assumes that the goal is a reduction of legal immigration rather than cutting off corridors of immigration that allow for chain immigration, they assume that there will be no increase in VISAs in other areas as some areas are shut down over the next fifty years.

It also doesn't seemed aimed at Mexicans in particular, which was your original claim. CATO's report makes the White House plan seem like an NFL contract, with all the big numbers back loaded toward the end of the contract term. They estimate that immigration will be reduced by a total of 22 million over the next 50 years, which is an average reduction of about 440K a year or right around 40% of current immigration rates. But much of that reduction comes decades from now. So how much is legal immigration really being reduced right now? Not much, if at all. Certain kinds of VISAs are being refused at a higher rate, but that data also fails to show the actual number being accepted. My guess is that 2018 and 2019 immigration totals will both top 1M.

The number of foreign born immigrants as a percentage of the US population is near historic highs at 13.5%, and this is where the tension in our immigration debates is coming from, not fear-mongering. It almost never comes up in such debates how generous US immigration policy is. Somewhere between a fifth and a quarter of all immigrants worldwide live in the US.
 
Yeah, I'm all for this, getting rid of the diversity lottery that is, but it isn't a huge number of VISAs every year in terms of total percentages, under 5% in 2016 if my math is right.

Legal immigration has been pretty consistent for over a decade now and has not dropped at all under Trump. The tables on the Cato study were suggesting massive declines due to not letting people bring in their parents and siblings and foreign born adult children in. Cato's assumption is that Trump is trying to decrease immigration, but it seems plain is that he is trying to institute greater control over immigration policy that is too driven by familial networking and even lotteries. I think that is sensible. Because Cato also assumes that the goal is a reduction of legal immigration rather than cutting off corridors of immigration that allow for chain immigration, they assume that there will be no increase in VISAs in other areas as some areas are shut down over the next fifty years.

It also doesn't seemed aimed at Mexicans in particular, which was your original claim. CATO's report makes the White House plan seem like an NFL contract, with all the big numbers back loaded toward the end of the contract term. They estimate that immigration will be reduced by a total of 22 million over the next 50 years, which is an average reduction of about 440K a year or right around 40% of current immigration rates. But much of that reduction comes decades from now. So how much is legal immigration really being reduced right now? Not much, if at all. Certain kinds of VISAs are being refused at a higher rate, but that data also fails to show the actual number being accepted. My guess is that 2018 and 2019 immigration totals will both top 1M.

The number of foreign born immigrants as a percentage of the US population is near historic highs at 13.5%, and this is where the tension in our immigration debates is coming from, not fear-mongering. It almost never comes up in such debates how generous US immigration policy is. Somewhere between a fifth and a quarter of all immigrants worldwide live in the US.
you had me at hello
 
I don't think there's a very good case for this. Americans overwhelmingly opposed granting refuge to European Jews during the Holocaust. Likewise, we've seen an entire half of the country mobilized on scapegoating of Mexican illegal immigrants. Those are two groups with values that are incredible similar to those of white/conservative America. Mexicans have not only been a model minority group: they've deeply penetrated American culture. I think the successful fearmongering about Mexicans in the US kind of nixed your argument about the logic of xenophobia.

Yeah, i wasnt trying to explain xenophobia in America, but mainly in general.

Take into account that Reagan conservatives didnt had this phobia against hispanics either.
 
Seriously wtf is wrong with these people



They are threatening people, claiming they are 30,000 strong and will massacre locals who oppose them.



Again threatening the locals.

One throwing gang signs, they have absolutely no respect for the country.
 
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