Historic Karate-Do training in Japan (with commentary)

[spacetime]

The inferiority complex towards Western Boxing is present throughout the film and the styles contrasted. Very funny. It is explained how the punches differ, why the Karateka is a more formidabel opponent, and why they have no contact-sparring (otherwise their deadly techniques would leave no sparring partners left!) and that Karate is the greatest thing ever created.

Enjoy!

 

[Dougall]

Interesting to see that they always saw themselves as superior to boxers even in the early days. I know even still in my club boxers and boxing in general are the butt of many jokes and insults, it almost seems to get used as a derogatory term for someone who can't punch.

 

[spacetime]

Interesting to see that they always saw themselves as superior to boxers even in the early days. I know even still in my club boxers and boxing in general are the butt of many jokes and insults, it almost seems to get used as a derogatory term for someone who can't punch.

Delusional. Also unfalsifiable since they refused contact sparring. The definition of a cult. Bruce Lee used to visit Karate dojos and beat them up, which I find incredibly cowardly. Why not pick on real fighters in gyms instead?

 

[CoolKnees]

The most interesting thing is that once you actually let people spar or fight each other, it quickly ends up looking like boxing / kickboxing.

I think what happened is that the original creator could actually fight but for some reason their system of teaching removed the sparring aspect. My guess is that they used no gloves and nobody wants to spar bareknuckle. Same thing happened to Kyokushin and is why face punching is not allowed. As time passes by, the original intent gets twisted and warped because the karateka doesn't actually fight and ultimately the knowledge is lost.

Look at the traditional karate stance:

Pretty goofy by todays standards, yet look at Jack Johnson's stance:

Coincidence?

 

[spacetime]

The most interesting thing is that once you actually let people spar or fight each other, it quickly ends up looking like boxing / kickboxing.

I think what happened is that the original creator could actually fight but for some reason their system of teaching removed the sparring aspect. My guess is that they used no gloves and nobody wants to spar bareknuckle. Same thing happened to Kyokushin and is why face punching is not allowed. As time passes by, the original intent gets twisted and warped because the karateka doesn't actually fight and ultimately the knowledge is lost.

Look at the traditional karate stance:

Pretty goofy by todays standards, yet look at Jack Johnson's stance:

Coincidence?

That's not the same stance at all.

 

[spacetime]

[QUOTE="CoolKnees, post: 135295361, member: 501013My guess is that they used no gloves and nobody wants to spar bareknuckle. Same thing happened to Kyokushin and is why face punching is not allowed. [/QUOTE]

Mas Oyama had bare knuckled face punching in his original Kyokushin dojangs. It was the Japanese government that banned bare knuckled full contact punching to the face in competiton.

 

[spacetime]

Karateka Motobu Choki KOed either a boxer och strongman in the second round. So some were naturally tough, of course.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motobu_Chōki#The_boxing_match

 

[shinkyoku]

[QUOTE="CoolKnees, post: 135295361, member: 501013My guess is that they used no gloves and nobody wants to spar bareknuckle. Same thing happened to Kyokushin and is why face punching is not allowed.

Mas Oyama had bare knuckled face punching in his original Kyokushin dojangs. It was the Japanese government that banned bare knuckled full contact punching to the face in competiton.[/QUOTE]

both.
Japan did have a law against bareknuckle boxing. That was a big reason that kyokushin tournaments ended up with no punches vs the head. But they also dropped the dojo (dojang is tkd, not karate) fights with face punching, and that was because of high dropout rates and unacceptable injury frequency for amateur fighters. Basically, not enough people are stupid enough to fight bareknuckle with headpunches several times a week. It is not good for health.
The alternative was the huge pillows called boxinggloves in the 50ies/early 60ies. And if you put on boxing gloves, everything becomes boxing. Oyama had trained boxing (briefly) and knew how gloves changes punching (and blocking) technique.

 

[spacetime]

both.
Japan did have a law against bareknuckle boxing. That was a big reason that kyokushin tournaments ended up with no punches vs the head. But they also dropped the dojo (dojang is tkd, not karate) fights with face punching, and that was because of high dropout rates and unacceptable injury frequency for amateur fighters. Basically, not enough people are stupid enough to fight bareknuckle with headpunches several times a week. It is not good for health.
The alternative was the huge pillows called boxinggloves in the 50ies/early 60ies. And if you put on boxing gloves, everything becomes boxing. Oyama had trained boxing (briefly) and knew how gloves changes punching (and blocking) technique.

Seidokan tournaments have gloves added and face punching allowed in the event of a draw. Are they doing boxing? How about the JKA outside of Japan and WKF? Why not use point karate gloves or MMA gloves?

 

[spacetime]

What they should have done is like Dolph lundgrens club, have bareknuckle to the face semi contact.

 

[spacetime]

Another interesting observation is breaking boards by Nakayamas men. This is not really emphasized by todays Shotokan karate instructors , while it's huge in Kyoukushin and ITF TaekwonDo.

 

[spacetime]

If boxing gloves change technique, how is it that boxers shadow
box bareknuckled? Hmmm..

 

[listrahtes]

Another interesting observation is breaking boards by Nakayamas men. This is not really emphasized by todays Shotokan karate instructors , while it's huge in Kyoukushin and ITF TaekwonDo.

and serves no purpose at all besides impressing toddlers.

As soon as you go into sparring with other MA the glaring weaknesses of many (all I know of) Karate styles become obvious (I did that).

For that to happen you have to be open about new influence but most Karate is fixated on glorifying the past instead of learning and adapting. Thats why western MA surpassed them by a lot.

You dont have a coach you need to mystify and shut down all critique and you learn technical skill by applying it. If something doesnt work for you, you change it with your coach until it fits. Try that in Karate.

The less ideology the more effective the MA thats why MMA is such a fantastic development not only for skill but broaden your horizon and in the end learn to be more open to new influences.

NEW
If boxing gloves change technique, how is it that boxers shadow
box bareknuckled? Hmmm..

It changes your defensive posture in the fight.

 

[spacetime]

and serves no purpose at all besides impressing toddlers.

As soon as you go into sparring with other MA the glaring weaknesses of many (all I know of) Karate styles become obvious (I did that).

For that to happen you have to be open about new influence but most Karate is fixated on glorifying the past instead of learning and adapting. Thats why western MA surpassed them by a lot.

You dont have a coach you need to mystify and shut down all critique and you learn technical skill by applying it. If something doesnt work for you, you change it with your coach until it fits. Try that in Karate.

The less ideology the more effective the MA thats why MMA is such a fantastic development not only for skill but broaden your horizon and in the end learn to be more open to new influences.

It changes your defensive posture in the fight.

Not true. Mas Oyama beat boxers, wrestlers, Muay Thai guys etc with his Karate in no holding barred fights.

 

[listrahtes]

Not true. Mas Oyama beat boxers, wrestlers, Muay Thai guys etc with his Karate in no holding barred fights.

I am going by my own experience and what is a little more present than ancient stories.
I have not trained Kyukushin nor sparred against one, so I am not competent to talk about.

Maybe its the exception but regarding Kyukushin I do decide to trust and respect John Bluming who is much less about mythical bullshido stories than Oyama.

anyone interested can read something up here: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/vault/karate/did-mas-oyama-ever-fight

Oyamas described behaviour in this article is exactly what I meant with my text.

 

[spacetime]

I am going by my own experience and what is a little more present than ancient stories.
I have not trained Kyukushin nor sparred against one, so I am not competent to talk about.

Maybe its the exception but regarding Kyukushin I do decide to trust and respect John Bluming who is much less about mythical bullshido stories than Oyama.

anyone interested can read something up here: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/vault/karate/did-mas-oyama-ever-fight

Oyamas described behaviour in this article is exactly what I meant with my text.

It is well documented. Mas Oyama kicked the wrestler in the balls. Kyokushinbudokai is surely even better since it combines striking with groundgame grappling.

 

[CoolKnees]

I am going by my own experience and what is a little more present than ancient stories.
I have not trained Kyukushin nor sparred against one, so I am not competent to talk about.

Maybe its the exception but regarding Kyukushin I do decide to trust and respect John Bluming who is much less about mythical bullshido stories than Oyama.

anyone interested can read something up here: http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/vault/karate/did-mas-oyama-ever-fight

Oyamas described behaviour in this article is exactly what I meant with my text.

Wow, I've never seen that article before. Is it true? Who knows, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was. And this gem of a video:



From :02 to :12... what was that?

 

[shinkyoku]

Seidokan tournaments have gloves added and face punching allowed in the event of a draw. Are they doing boxing? How about the JKA outside of Japan and WKF? Why not use point karate gloves or MMA gloves?

ever hit something repeatedly full contact with wkf point gloves? bloody useless. they work well for what they are designed for. heavy continuous fighting is just not it. They are last ditch safety when fighting first-hit no/light contact.
Some do use mma gloves or similar. But when the rules for kyokushin was designed in the 50ies and implemented in the 60ies, that was not a option as such small effective gloves did not exist (nor did wkf type point karate gloves). And you still dont want to get hit in the head with them too many times.
H*ll, daido juku "kudo" rules was originally designed for kyokushin, but it was determined that the knockdown rules had already become too entrenched and widespread to change.

And are seidokaikan extension rounds (and shidokan and glove karate) boxing? well, yes. or atleast kickboxing. When you put on boxing gloves, everything with your hands, punches, guard and blocks, adapts to them.

 

[spacetime]

ever hit something repeatedly full contact with wkf point gloves? bloody useless. they work well for what they are designed for. heavy continuous fighting is just not it. They are last ditch safety when fighting first-hit no/light contact.
Some do use mma gloves or similar. But when the rules for kyokushin was designed in the 50ies and implemented in the 60ies, that was not a option as such small effective gloves did not exist (nor did wkf type point karate gloves). And you still dont want to get hit in the head with them too many times.
H*ll, daido juku "kudo" rules was originally designed for kyokushin, but it was determined that the knockdown rules had already become too entrenched and widespread to change.

And are seidokaikan extension rounds (and shidokan and glove karate) boxing? well, yes. or atleast kickboxing. When you put on boxing gloves, everything with your hands, punches, guard and blocks, adapts to them.

I have sparred continous hard contact in these (in ITF Taekwondo) and it was nice.

 

[spacetime]

I still don't understand how no face punching is better than light contact bareknuckled. Like they do in JKA in Japan but continous