Hey guys, what are your thoughts on "Trapping"?

[Randy Chung]

Notice the Karate Parry pulls the hand down and the practioner (Machida) strikes over it? This is a poor pary because the attacker's other hand is free to strike in this case Lyoto beat him to the punch but he could have beaten Lyoto to the punch if he were faster and also he could have paryed Lyoto's incoming punch.

The WC pary pushes the hand across the attackers body into his other arm and strikes past it that way the attacker cant defend or counter punch because his two arms are tied up trapped.:icon_chee

Yeah! That's like Bak Mei as well! We trap the inside of the elbow pushing against the hip using the "kiew" or forarm. Your opponent wouldn't be able to use his other arm effectively unless he spins out of it.

My Sifu knew both Bak Mei and Wing Chun... very interchangable...

 

[Shin_Akuma]

Yes, the mass analogy was probably not so good, even incorrect technically!
A bit sloppy in my terms there..

Did you happen to look at the link I posted about the physics of a punch?

"F=ma+cv+kx. This longer equation takes other variables into consideration, such as wind resistance, gravity, friction within joints, muscle tension, and energy lost through heat. This longer equation for force contains 6 parts: (mass x acceleration) + (velocity x displacement) + (damping x stiffness)"

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it, as the physical model of a punch is kinda interesting.

I doubt that equation would model a punch very well. First of all, it's just one Newton's second law equation, so it would never model the collision nor account for the doubling of momentum transfer in an ideal reflection process.

Then as for the forces involved, I highly doubt that the spring force on a punch would be linear. It's more likely very nonlinear, but perhaps linear in wind up range. I would also think much of the force comes from torque in the wind up and not straight forces. So it would be a matter of angular displacement and not distance.

Personally, I would just start with a simpler model involving conservation of momentum and a collision. If I wanted to model the force, I might consider a combination angular and translational springs - I'm not sure it would work too well though. There are many, many degrees of freedom in the body mechanics. There might not be a simple model.

 

[TenderLoving]

I believe you Shin_akuma. Remember during my intro to college physics, I tried to draw up a model of a low-kick using the column volume thingies(I'm Norwegian, sry.).
Got quite whacky numbers..

 

[random shot:]

It's an art from southern China.

Often fictionalized in chinese martial art films...

Here is a good read...

Bak Mei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Technique wise, it has a lot of trapping similar to Wing Chun with lots of forward agressive movement from Tiger style Kung Fu.

Interesting style i would like to spar one of these guy's one day

 

[Marvin Covar]

It's good for an initial attack, but no good when your foe already knows it's coming. It is a beautiful thing to learn, though. Very intricate.

 

[Chinaboxer]

haven't been on this forum forever, i've been very busy teaching and training, but wanted everyone to know that i'm still moving forward towards hopefully one day, giving WC some semblance of respect in the world of martial arts. below are two clips of me training and teaching.

this first video was an impromptu session with my friend. it's of course not full sparring, but rather just a light training. i promised not to hit him since i wasn't wearing gloves, i just wanted to work on some footwork, but i told him that he was allowed to make light contact since he had boxing gloves on. he has about ten years of boxing experience.

Wing Chun - Sparring Footwork Drill (part 2) - YouTube

the second video is me doing sensitivity training with a guest from Sweden, who came to train with me for a few weeks. he has been doing WC for about eight years.

Chi Sau - Training with Kevin - YouTube

i'm currently teaching at a local MMA school. you can find the information on my youtube channel chinaboxer's Channel - YouTube
everyone is of course welcome to come and workout if you are in the area, take care and peace!

 

[hyatt]

Firstly: You have some good skills and I wish you well in your endeavours.
Don't take this personally: as you stated, you were not sparring hard with the guy in the first clip, but he is either very poor at closing the distance or you had an agreement that he would not hit you. I can see how your skills would be applicable in sparring, effective in fighting, but I would love to see you full-contact sparring with someone who has bad intentions. Not because I want to see you hurt, I just want to see if it can be utilised in a combat situation.

 

[BRCLRY]

Hey China Boxer great posts. Ive referred a lot of my students to your videos on you tube so they can understand the WC mechanics of JKD well. You mentioned Inosantos, and Ted Wongs lineages when you were talking about JKD, and assessed their trapping as lacking the foundations in WC that make them effective. I would have to refer you to Jerry Poteet's lineage, there are three main lineages in JKD. The inosanto branch, Ted Wong's and the lineages that came from the backyard class Bruce held untill he passed which included Pete Jacobs, Jerry Poteet, Steve Golden, Daniel Lee, and Bob Bremer. I respect what you wanna do for Wing Chun, Im going to do the same thing for JKD

 

[Chinaboxer]

Hey China Boxer great posts. Ive referred a lot of my students to your videos on you tube so they can understand the WC mechanics of JKD well. You mentioned Inosantos, and Ted Wongs lineages when you were talking about JKD, and assessed their trapping as lacking the foundations in WC that make them effective. I would have to refer you to Jerry Poteet's lineage, there are three main lineages in JKD. The inosanto branch, Ted Wong's and the lineages that came from the backyard class Bruce held untill he passed which included Pete Jacobs, Jerry Poteet, Steve Golden, Daniel Lee, and Bob Bremer. I respect what you wanna do for Wing Chun, Im going to do the same thing for JKD

thanks for the kind words, i really appreciate that and it's also great that you are also looking to help promote Chinese martial arts in general. i practiced privately with Jerry Poteet for about a year at his house. he's such a wonderful human being and also full of great insights into JKD.

i also talked with the Muay Thai fighters at the MMA school where i teach at and they've agreed to do some sparring videos with me. so i should be able to post them in the near future.

 

[Hotora86]

Notice the Karate Parry pulls the hand down and the practioner (Machida) strikes over it? This is a poor pary because the attacker's other hand is free to strike in this case Lyoto beat him to the punch but he could have beaten Lyoto to the punch if he were faster and also he could have paryed Lyoto's incoming punch.

The WC pary pushes the hand across the attackers body into his other arm and strikes past it that way the attacker cant defend or counter punch because his two arms are tied up trapped.:icon_chee

Difference is, Karate parry actually works in combat (see Machida example) and WC parry does not. Unless you have a video/gif of some kickboxing or MMA bout where the WC practitioner pulls it off - please post it.

 

[Flexwave2003]

We worked on trapping in class quite a bit, Lap Sao and variations of it in particular. I had did similar techniques long before that instructor taught us to do it based solely on observation. My way was a bit different, but after a few practice runs I picked up the Lap Sao and others well enough to pass the test, though I knew all along this would not be something I tried in a real fight.

I believe these techniques had origins in Dan Inosanto if im not mistaken as taught to him by Bruce Lee.

 

[SAAMAG]

Difference is, Karate parry actually works in combat (see Machida example) and WC parry does not. Unless you have a video/gif of some kickboxing or MMA bout where the WC practitioner pulls it off - please post it.

Did you notice the irony in your request? You want to see a kickboxer or MMA guy illustrate it...well you know as well as anyone that kickboxers and MMA fighters aren't going to be the ones you see doing that. It's simply not how they're taught to fight. When I'm using muay thai, even I generally don't go through the "hand trapping" in full, but rather will parry or press which is indeed part of the skillset but is not foreign to boxing or kickboxing or muay thai.

FULL TRAPS as in you've pinned both arms...is very uncommon in a real fight unless the skill disparity between fighters is quite large.

I'd say right now your best bet at seeing it done by someone fighting in the cage is by watching the wing chun guys in the cage that are successful...last I heard that was Orr's folks. One very important thing to keep in mind, is just like in boxing where you might have a guy who is uses peekaboo vs philly shell, there are different interpretations on what Wing Chun should be in application.

While I don't necessarily use wing chun in the same way as these guys and have my own critiques as well, here are a couple of examples of what's out there on yt:

Here's how the scandanavian guys do it:

East Coast guys

 

[Hotora86]

Did you notice the irony in your request? You want to see a kickboxer or MMA guy illustrate it...well you know as well as anyone that kickboxers and MMA fighters aren't going to be the ones you see doing that. It's simply not how they're taught to fight. When I'm using muay thai, even I generally don't go through the "hand trapping" in full, but rather will parry or press which is indeed part of the skillset but is not foreign to boxing or kickboxing or muay thai.

No, I did not notice the irony in my request. Probably because I DON'T want to see a kickboxer or MMA guy illustrate it. I want a Wing Chun guy to illustrate it against a resisting opponent. Is that too much to ask?

FULL TRAPS as in you've pinned both arms...is very uncommon in a real fight unless the skill disparity between fighters is quite large.

So the opponent needs to be crappy for the technique to work? Doesn't that mean the technique itself is crappy?

I'd say right now your best bet at seeing it done by someone fighting in the cage is by watching the wing chun guys in the cage that are successful...last I heard that was Orr's folks.

I am skeptical but not stubborn. If I see it in action I will admit I was wrong. Please show it to me.

EDIT:
The YT videos you posted don't really show much. The only conclusions I came to after watching are:
1. Wing Chun can work against Wing Chun. Duh.
2. WC guys shown don't defend or cover up when hit.
3. WC guys shown tend to get hit in the head a lot.
4. WC guys shown can't finish with GnP from mount.
5. WC guys shown like to throw wild hooks, however their hooks are not powerful enough to KO an opponent.

Notice I type "WC guys shown" and not "WC" - I don't judge the entire art, just the people I see using it.

 

[Hotora86]

Notice the Karate Parry pulls the hand down and the practioner (Machida) strikes over it? This is a poor pary because the attacker's other hand is free to strike in this case Lyoto beat him to the punch but he could have beaten Lyoto to the punch if he were faster and also he could have paryed Lyoto's incoming punch.

The WC pary pushes the hand across the attackers body into his other arm and strikes past it that way the attacker cant defend or counter punch because his two arms are tied up trapped.:icon_chee

I don't know if anyone noticed but what you WC guys are saying is basically "Your technique works in MMA but it's bad. My technique doesn't work in MMA but it's good."

How does this make any sense?

 

[SAAMAG]

I noticed that too. That's theory vs reality. IN THEORY the patting down leaves someone open for the second punch vs using a body trap of the arm towards the other arm. IN REALITY it's more about fighters' individual skill in application of a said technique more so than the underlying theory behind it.

There's nothing wrong with either--as long as you can pull it off. Because it's not just the technique that breeds success, but a combination of things from the individual's attributes, the environment, the relative skill levels and fight experience, confidence, conditioning, and even luck.

My opinion anyway.

 

[SAAMAG]

No, I did not notice the irony in my request. Probably because I DON'T want to see a kickboxer or MMA guy illustrate it. I want a Wing Chun guy to illustrate it against a resisting opponent. Is that too much to ask?

Not at all.

So the opponent needs to be crappy for the technique to work? Doesn't that mean the technique itself is crappy?

If that's how you want to interpret the statement. I could also say with absolute fact that a rear naked choke is less likely to be successful if you've got two evenly matched people versus two unevenly matched. That idea isn't exclusive to wing chun trapping.

I am skeptical but not stubborn. If I see it in action I will admit I was wrong. Please show it to me.

If you REALLY want to see it, go visit a wc school and ask to spar one of the more experienced guys. That's the most honest way to see it. Not a video on youtube.

EDIT:
The YT videos you posted don't really show much. The only conclusions I came to after watching are:
1. Wing Chun can work against Wing Chun. Duh.
2. WC guys shown don't defend or cover up when hit.
3. WC guys shown tend to get hit in the head a lot.
4. WC guys shown can't finish with GnP from mount.
5. WC guys shown like to throw wild hooks, however their hooks are not powerful enough to KO an opponent.

Notice I type "WC guys shown" and not "WC" - I don't judge the entire art, just the people I see using it.

You seem to focus on negatives. As long as you do that, you'll never really be satisfied with anything in life. You also don't seem to take things in context with the totality of the examples given.

1. Fighting is fighting
2. Wing Chun guys shown are amatuers at best.
3. Wing Chun guys shown are amatuers at best.
4. There are some grapplers who can't finish with GnP from mount
5. You can't gauge power by watching a video, you can only assume. Are you willing to take one of their hooks to test that theory?

 

[Hotora86]

If you REALLY want to see it, go visit a wc school and ask to spar one of the more experienced guys. That's the most honest way to see it. Not a video on youtube.

OK, let's try a different approach. Here's my experience with trapping.

I once knew a person who had 8 years of experience in multiple styles of Kung Fu. She showed me some cool looking Kung Fu moves, including trapping and very "unorthodox" combinations. Then she invited me to some friendly sparring... and fought like a kickboxer: jab, straight, roundhouse kick was all she did.

Here's my thought on this: maybe the chain punch, trapping and other "unorthodox" stuff is not meant for fighting against a strong, resisting opponent? Maybe it's used against someone who we don't want to harm - a friend, a woman, a drunk? For example I've done some Aikido and I find it very useful for restraining a friend who's had too much to drink and needs to be "escorted" home. Would work great against women too. Used against sober strong men the same techniques fail however.

Your opinion?

 

[SAAMAG]

OK, let's try a different approach. Here's my experience with trapping.

I once knew a person who had 8 years of experience in multiple styles of Kung Fu. She showed me some cool looking Kung Fu moves, including trapping and very "unorthodox" combinations. Then she invited me to some friendly sparring... and fought like a kickboxer: jab, straight, roundhouse kick was all she did.

Here's my thought on this: maybe the chain punch, trapping and other "unorthodox" stuff is not meant for fighting against a strong, resisting opponent? Maybe it's used against someone who we don't want to harm - a friend, a woman, a drunk? For example I've done some Aikido and I find it very useful for restraining a friend who's had too much to drink and needs to be "escorted" home. Would work great against women too. Used against sober strong men the same techniques fail however.

Your opinion?

My opinion is that she probably didn't practice her actual techniques in sparring to be comfortable enough to use them. Given that I didn't see this or know her--that's merely speculation based on a broad problem with kung fu training in general.

But there could be other reasons. Have you ever had a combination that worked well against one person but not another? Same goes for any combination or trapping technique.

The idea of trapping is to remove barriers from your line of attack, nothing more. It's not a goal. You punch they block or cover, you remove the obstruction and take advantage of the momentary open line. It's not meant to be intricate or convoluted. The simpler the better. The fancy hand chasing stuff is better called lap sap sao--garbage hand.

But I do use wing chun during clinch sparring and it works quite well there.

 

[barnowl]

OK, let's try a different approach. Here's my experience with trapping.

I once knew a person who had 8 years of experience in multiple styles of Kung Fu. She showed me some cool looking Kung Fu moves, including trapping and very "unorthodox" combinations. Then she invited me to some friendly sparring... and fought like a kickboxer: jab, straight, roundhouse kick was all she did.

Here's my thought on this: maybe the chain punch, trapping and other "unorthodox" stuff is not meant for fighting against a strong, resisting opponent? Maybe it's used against someone who we don't want to harm - a friend, a woman, a drunk? For example I've done some Aikido and I find it very useful for restraining a friend who's had too much to drink and needs to be "escorted" home. Would work great against women too. Used against sober strong men the same techniques fail however.

Your opinion?

The question is is how did she defend? I have trained or spared against alot styles. The 2 most common punches are the Jab and the straight. The 2 most common kicks to follow are the roundhouse or the front kick. I expect anyone and every one to fight with combo of those 4 strikes. What tended to give away the background was how they defended against incoming attacks and starting stance.

 

[xd 40***]

Upset this thread isnt about trapping wolves