Help developing an S&C regimen for BJJ without squats.

[fanboysareevil]

Before you grab the torches and pitchforks: I have an injury to (I believe) my MCL from a toehold that makes even wall squats give me significant pain and mobility issues. Thing is, I can still do Jiu-Jitsu just fine so I would like to hold off potential surgical intervention as long as I can. The inurry I had a rough year last year with various illnesses and my knee injury, as well as some shoulder issues, so I haven't lifted in several months. Shoulders are finally rehabbed for the most part so I can do presses again, and I don't think deadlifts bother me.

Best lifts right before my hiatus, to give a rough idea of my experience level:
Bench 235x5
Squat 365x5
Deadlift 440x1
22 chins
I don't remember/have written down what I was rowing.

I don't know what I can do now but I'll find out soon if that is in any way relevant to what someone suggests. I can do 16 chins now is the only one I've tested.

I weight 175-185 generally. On the heavier side of that now and in the process of losing a little bit, although not a big serious weight loss.

I have access to squat stands, a bench, a barbell, pullup/dip bars, and adjustable (meh) dumbbells. I train Jiu-Jitsu M/T/TH/Sat/Sun, although I won't the next couple of Sundays. I will definitely lift on Wednesdays and either Friday or Sunday (Sunday training isn't particularly hard), although I'm unsure if I should go with a 2 or 3 day routine.

 

[Cmart]

Only thing I want to say is get your knee looked at, and hopefully fixed.

 

[dsdoubled]

You don't have access to an orthopedic, athletic trainer, PT, or anything like that? They would fairly easily be able to do some poking, prodding, and pulling on the knee and be able to rule out ACL disruption. Knowing whats actually wrong with the knee is pretty important in determining which exercises are off limits. Having said that, Id start working on your calf flexibility and start strengthening your tibialis muscle (think the opposite motion of a calf raise) as a means of rehabbing the knee. Those 2 moves are so often overlooked but extremely effective in helping to stabilize the knee. AND, there is very little chance of aggravating the injury. Once you've done that or if you've already done that, Id recommend you start with sprints on a good old stationary bike. You can try both the recumbent bike as well as the upright bike but Id rather see you do the upright bike bc the angle is healthier for the knee usually. By using various intervals, resistance levels, and approaches you can get an extremely useful and effective workout on this simple machine. It should really be a staple anyway. On top of that, id try some step ups. Concentrate on really trying to remain upright and push through the glute as much as possible. I had major knee problems for years and these are still the only 2 quad exercises I will do. They are safe and extremely effective. If you can do deadlifts without pain then squats are not nearly as essential and kind of redundant in my opinion. Your a Bjjer not a bodybuilder/powerlifter.

 

[Cmart]

You don't have access to an orthopedic, athletic trainer, PT, or anything like that? They would fairly easily be able to do some poking, prodding, and pulling on the knee and be able to rule out ACL disruption. Knowing whats actually wrong with the knee is pretty important in determining which exercises are off limits. Having said that, Id start working on your calf flexibility and start strengthening your tibialis muscle (think the opposite motion of a calf raise) as a means of rehabbing the knee. Those 2 moves are so often overlooked but extremely effective in helping to stabilize the knee. AND, there is very little chance of aggravating the injury. Once you've done that or if you've already done that, Id recommend you start with sprints on a good old stationary bike. You can try both the recumbent bike as well as the upright bike but Id rather see you do the upright bike bc the angle is healthier for the knee usually. By using various intervals, resistance levels, and approaches you can get an extremely useful and effective workout on this simple machine. It should really be a staple anyway. On top of that, id try some step ups. Concentrate on really trying to remain upright and push through the glute as much as possible. I had major knee problems for years and these are still the only 2 quad exercises I will do. They are safe and extremely effective. If you can do deadlifts without pain then squats are not nearly as essential and kind of redundant in my opinion. Your a Bjjer not a bodybuilder/powerlifter.

Would you mind posting some medical corroboration for your idea of doing tibialis exercises to help with an MCL injury? I didn't immediately see anything on that when I looked. Also, your credentials for recommending that course of treatment? Not that I'm not a fan of taking medical/rehab advice from random internet posters, I'm just curious.

 

[ripskater]

If you can't bench teh 275 and do squats, why do you even want to live, let alone train?

 

[fanboysareevil]

In answer to the question about getting my knee looked at, my insurance can probably get me to an ortho and maybe an MRI but I don't know about a PT.

 

[TheeFaulted]

If you can't even squat your bodyweight you need to get to a doctor. This is going to affect you the rest of your life.

 

[dsdoubled]

If you can't bench teh 275 and do squats, why do you even want to live, let alone train?

Damn! I haven't seen a 275 reference in forever. That's awesome that its still alive and kicking.

 

[dsdoubled]

Would you mind posting some medical corroboration for your idea of doing tibialis exercises to help with an MCL injury? I didn't immediately see anything on that when I looked. Also, your credentials for recommending that course of treatment? Not that I'm not a fan of taking medical/rehab advice from random internet posters, I'm just curious.

Well, just to be clear, I wasn't offering the advice to you. You're welcome to it but it was meant for the OP. Also, I didn't say that strengthening the tibialis was part of an MCL rehab program. It certainly can be, but the OP doesn't even know if its his MCL that is injured. Strengthening the tibialis (and working on calf flexibility) is really just meant to increase the overall stability of the lower leg, address an extremely common muscular imbalance that is not good for the knee, and provide the knee with more assistance when faced with a situation such as rolling the ankle or externally rotating the knee joint. Both of these ranges of motion are often involved with MCL/ACL/medial meniscus injuries. As for a direct correlation between MCL injuries and the tibialis, youre welcome to research it yourself but Im not gonna dig for it. You will probably find something. As for my credentials, I have a degree in Exercise Science, a PFT certification from the American College of Sports Medicine, and probably most important, a long history of knee injuries including multiple surgeries and the rehab that followed. Not the most prestigious creds in the world, but pretty good and it qualifies me to make the comment I did. And of course I wouldn't recommend taking my advice instead of consulting a doctor or PT, but it can be a good place to start for fanboysareevil.

 

[dsdoubled]

In answer to the question about getting my knee looked at, my insurance can probably get me to an ortho and maybe an MRI but I don't know about a PT.

That's cool man. Trust me you don't want to go on not knowing. Lets say you have only a partial tear of a certain knee ligament or an injury to the meniscus, you don't want to make it any worse and need surgery. And you don't want to simply find ways of dealing with it and develop other injuries due to compensatory mechanisms that you will develop over time. If your insurance will provide a ortho visit and an MRI, that's great. Unless you have surgery, those are the 2 you will need most. PTs are good but not always necessary.

 

[Cmart]

Well, just to be clear, I wasn't offering the advice to you. You're welcome to it but it was meant for the OP. Also, I didn't say that strengthening the tibialis was part of an MCL rehab program. It certainly can be, but the OP doesn't even know if its his MCL that is injured. Strengthening the tibialis (and working on calf flexibility) is really just meant to increase the overall stability of the lower leg, address an extremely common muscular imbalance that is not good for the knee, and provide the knee with more assistance when faced with a situation such as rolling the ankle or externally rotating the knee joint. Both of these ranges of motion are often involved with MCL/ACL/medial meniscus injuries. As for a direct correlation between MCL injuries and the tibialis, youre welcome to research it yourself but Im not gonna dig for it. You will probably find something. As for my credentials, I have a degree in Exercise Science, a PFT certification from the American College of Sports Medicine, and probably most important, a long history of knee injuries including multiple surgeries and the rehab that followed. Not the most prestigious creds in the world, but pretty good and it qualifies me to make the comment I did. And of course I wouldn't recommend taking my advice instead of consulting a doctor or PT, but it can be a good place to start for fanboysareevil.

I'd suggest that the first piece of advice anyone should give an injured person asking questions would be to go see a doctor.

You jumped right into unrelated rehab. You didn't mention any credential, not that it matters when your advice lacked any understanding of TS's issue. That's why I asked. And that's why I'll always have a problem with medical advice asked for or offered in a forum like this.

 

[dsdoubled]

I'd suggest that the first piece of advice anyone should give an injured person asking questions would be to go see a doctor.

You jumped right into unrelated rehab. You didn't mention any credential, not that it matters when your advice lacked any understanding of TS's issue. That's why I asked. And that's why I'll always have a problem with medical advice asked for or offered in a forum like this.

- "I'd suggest that the first piece of advice anyone should give an injured person asking questions would be to go see a doctor."

I opened with the following

You don't have access to an orthopedic, athletic trainer, PT, or anything like that? They would fairly easily be able to do some poking, prodding, and pulling on the knee and be able to rule out ACL disruption. Knowing whats actually wrong with the knee is pretty important in determining which exercises are off limits.


- "You jumped right into unrelated rehab.You didn't mention any credential, not that it matters when your advice lacked any understanding of TS's issue "

OP mentioned pain in the knee and not even being able to wall squat and stated that the injury is from a toe hold. The advice I gave addressed the very structures that are stressed by a toehold while also having the added benefit of addressing a possible MCL injury and I offered him ways to rehab the injury without giving any contraindicated movements. The protocol I gave would be good for the vast majority of knee injuries because its basic. I don't understand how you can say I jumped into "unrelated rehab" or how my advice "lacked any understanding of TS's issues". I know what hurts, I know what ROM caused the injury, and I know the anatomy of the knee. I avoided giving any advice that even came close to being risky.

- " And that's why I'll always have a problem with medical advice asked for or offered in a forum like this."

Great, you took a stand against this and remained steadfast in your cause.

 

[fanboysareevil]

I want to clarify that I CAN wall squat just fine and could probably barbell squat over 200 without much difficulty. It's just that it aggravates it and hurts later. It's not absolutely crippling it, like I said, I can still do Jiu_jitsu.

And yes, I will go to doctor, of course, I'm just trying to create a program in the meantime.

 

[frango]

I want to clarify that I CAN wall squat just fine and could probably barbell squat over 200 without much difficulty. It's just that it aggravates it and hurts later. It's not absolutely crippling it, like I said, I can still do Jiu_jitsu.

And yes, I will go to doctor, of course, I'm just trying to create a program in the meantime.

you know what to do..
deads
bench press
ohp

and i would forget chins and do pullups...you know, that biceps tear we really want to avoid? doing dead and biceps work is not that good idea...at least i fear that...so...try to work on a double overhand grip on your deads and go for the pullups.

if you are one of those who cant do a single pullup despite how many chins...just look for tutorial on correct form for the pullups.

something like 3x5 and progressive overload or any kind of waving periodization is good.
stay safe, stay healthy.
forget squats for a while. its ok.

 

[dsdoubled]

I want to clarify that I CAN wall squat just fine and could probably barbell squat over 200 without much difficulty. It's just that it aggravates it and hurts later. It's not absolutely crippling it, like I said, I can still do Jiu_jitsu.

And yes, I will go to doctor, of course, I'm just trying to create a program in the meantime.

I hear ya man. I usually say, if it hurts enough to make you question if you should be doing it, then skip it. There is almost always a better option.

 

[Cmart]

Great, you took a stand against this and remained steadfast in your cause.

It isn't just my cause.

Forbidden Topics

Injury threads. Don't ask the internet what you should ask a doctor. Discussing injury prevention, or dealing with minor aches and pains is acceptable. Threads asking for a diagnosis or advice on treatment are not allowed. Advocating steroid usage for any reason is not permitted.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/guide-forbidden-topics-list.2210723/

 

[Urban]

Get thee to a doctor.

In the meantime there's a million billion squat variations to try and find something that does not hurt: Box squats front squats goblet squats Bulgarian split squats lunges (walking reverse and elevated) step ups, just to name a few.

What's more any of the above can be done with accomodating resistance to load what may be more comfortable parts of the lift with greater resistance. You could also try wrapping you knee for some extra compression (rippetoe has a good video on this) or getting a neoprene sleeve like a rehband sleeve to keep it warm. There's a lot of option to try out and they're all about minimizing pain.

Beyond that, I repeat, get thee to a doctor

 

[dsdoubled]

It isn't just my cause.

Forbidden Topics

Injury threads. Don't ask the internet what you should ask a doctor. Discussing injury prevention, or dealing with minor aches and pains is acceptable. Threads asking for a diagnosis or advice on treatment are not allowed. Advocating steroid usage for any reason is not permitted.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/guide-forbidden-topics-list.2210723/

Read it all again bro. The entire thread. He didn't ask for a diagnosis or advice on treatment. He asked for strength & conditioning advice that didn't involve squats because his knee hurts. He doesn't even know for sure if he has any actual diagnosable injury. It could just be chronic pain. You wouldn't ask a doctor this question. You would ask a trainer, PT, or physiatrist, or kinesiologist.

 

[Cmart]

Read it all again bro. The entire thread. He didn't ask for a diagnosis or advice on treatment. He asked for strength & conditioning advice that didn't involve squats because his knee hurts. He doesn't even know for sure if he has any actual diagnosable injury. It could just be chronic pain. You wouldn't ask a doctor this question. You would ask a trainer, PT, or physiatrist, or kinesiologist.

Not on an mma forum you wouldn't.

 

[dsdoubled]

Not on an mma forum you wouldn't.

You are being ridiculous dude. You pick one element of each comment, decide to have a problem with it, and when I come back with completely valid counters you switch your position. This is the strength & conditioning section of an MMA forum. He asked the question and the discussion was had at a completely appropriate place.