Heavy lifting & Jiu Jitsu

[Pontigoose]

Does anyone here lift heavy 2-3 times a week? I don't lift to compliment my game at all, I just want to get stronger. I suppose what I am asking is how do you guys deal with the soreness? Like If I do a big leg day, or have a heavy dead lifting session, my body is so damn sore, it makes rolling uncomfortable and stiff. Anyone else have this issue?

 

[mgbyrnc]

i thought "leg day" was a meme

 

[TehGwarch]

Yes, you have to remember though..."heavy" just means challenging weight.

Most people lift too much bouncing, fast tempo, etc. Just bouncing their joints and tendons. The best way to avoid this is hold 1 second at the bottom before exploding up.

Instead of a "big" leg day...8 sets total

Quads
Squat, warm ups, 1x4-8
Leg Press, 1x8-12
Leg Extension, 1x12-16

Hamstrings
Stiff Leg Deadlift, warm ups, 1x4-8
Leg Curl 1x8-12

Calves
Donkey Calf Raise
warm ups
1x4-8 20% reduction
1x8-12 20% reduction
1x12-16

1st set is strength set, log weight and reps and strive for improvement in weight or reps while maintaining 2 second negative, 1 second at the bottom.

Last sets are mass sets that hit slower twitch muscle fibers, rest as little as possible don't log those too closely. Use challenging weight and hit the correct rep range to failure with perfect form. If hit failure early, rack the weight take 5 deep breaths and try again until the reps have been completed.

Then 40-60 minutes of cardio at 130-150bpm Roadwork 2.0 style.

This is typical Wednesday morning for me. I do the other groups on Monday and Friday so 3 sessions per week. Every muscle once per week.

If you don't want lots of muscle mass, you can do 1st strength set to failure, that will get you out of there in only 3 total work sets. Another option if you have time is stop 1 rep short of failure and train each muscle twice per week. This will not tax the CNS too much and give fast strength gains.

 

[These Two Hands]

The way I avoid the soreness/DOMS &c. from lifting is by just doing 3 sets of 5 with about 75% of my 1RM a la Tactical Barbell. And I only do a few compound exercises, too - DL, squats, standing overhead press and maybe some Yates rows.

 

[TehGwarch]

The two main variables you have to manage in your programs are volume and failure.

If you go to failure using heavy weight too often you will fry your nervous system and limit recovery.

If you use too much volume with heavy weight you will have really bad soreness.

So high frequency, low volume, stopping short of failure yields the fastest strength gains that will not hinder other training.

 

[Mcmoon]

I lift fairly heavy for me twice a week and I have no issues with soreness. It mostly has to do with just doing it enough and you will stop getting sore. I follow the 5/3/1 2 days a week template. So I will have squats and bench with 2 or 3 accessories on one day and deadlift and OHP with 2 or 3 accessories on another day.

 

[Oblivian]

Yes, you have to remember though..."heavy" just means challenging weight.

Most people lift too much bouncing, fast tempo, etc. Just bouncing their joints and tendons. The best way to avoid this is hold 1 second at the bottom before exploding up.

Instead of a "big" leg day...8 sets total

Quads
Squat, warm ups, 1x4-8
Leg Press, 1x8-12
Leg Extension, 1x12-16

Hamstrings
Stiff Leg Deadlift, warm ups, 1x4-8
Leg Curl 1x8-12

Calves
Donkey Calf Raise
warm ups
1x4-8 20% reduction
1x8-12 20% reduction
1x12-16

1st set is strength set, log weight and reps and strive for improvement in weight or reps while maintaining 2 second negative, 1 second at the bottom.

Last sets are mass sets that hit slower twitch muscle fibers, rest as little as possible don't log those too closely. Use challenging weight and hit the correct rep range to failure with perfect form. If hit failure early, rack the weight take 5 deep breaths and try again until the reps have been completed.

Then 40-60 minutes of cardio at 130-150bpm Roadwork 2.0 style.

This is typical Wednesday morning for me. I do the other groups on Monday and Friday so 3 sessions per week. Every muscle once per week.

If you don't want lots of muscle mass, you can do 1st strength set to failure, that will get you out of there in only 3 total work sets. Another option if you have time is stop 1 rep short of failure and train each muscle twice per week. This will not tax the CNS too much and give fast strength gains.

This sounds like horrible advice.

 

[TehGwarch]

This sounds like horrible advice.

But you can't say why because it's a secret, we know...

The mass gaining program is pro bodybuilder Phil Hernon's program with the frequency reduced to allow for BJJ training. He does that whole split twice a week but he's a maniac. Mass and strength, designed to hit all muscle fiber types in 3 sets.

The 1 set, high frequency strength "not to failure" variation is based on Pavel Tsatsouline's research. The eastern Europeans trained their strength athletes this way every day, I say 2-3 times per week because you have other work to do. Pure strength training.

The 1 set, once a week "to failure" HIT variation is IFBB pro "Big A"s off season mass gaining program he used from beginner to pro. It requires more intensity and experience than the Phil Hernon variation to tear the muscle down because you only have the one set. Mass and strength from this one.

The cardio portion is Roadwork 2.0.

But hey, you know best sparky.

 

[TehGwarch]

The drawback to simple powerliting programs such as starting strength is you will eventually develop imbalances that can cause injury.

You do only squats for legs, your hamstrings will be overpowered by quads and you got no calves.

Same with deltoids, big strong front delts, no side/rear delts. Impingement waiting to happen. You're gonna have to do face pulls and some side laterals. So I just gave you the framework with the optimum ranges...

Military press, warmups, 1x4-8
Dumbell laterals, 1x8-12
Rear Delt Machine, 1x12-16

Once you're done with all the assistance work, it's a bodybuilding program anyway. If you're gonna work out that much, may as well look like it too. lol

 

[Oblivian]

But you can't say why because it's a secret, we know...

The mass gaining program is pro bodybuilder Phil Hernon's program with the frequency reduced to allow for BJJ training. He does that whole split twice a week but he's a maniac. Mass and strength, designed to hit all muscle fiber types in 3 sets.

The 1 set, high frequency strength "not to failure" variation is based on Pavel Tsatsouline's research. The eastern Europeans trained their strength athletes this way every day, I say 2-3 times per week because you have other work to do. Pure strength training.

The 1 set, once a week "to failure" HIT variation is IFBB pro "Big A"s off season mass gaining program he used from beginner to pro. It requires more intensity and experience than the Phil Hernon variation to tear the muscle down because you only have the one set. Mass and strength from this one.

The cardio portion is Roadwork 2.0.

But hey, you know best sparky.

Why in the world would you have someone training for performance training like a bodybuilder? Calf raises? Leg curls? Assistance work has it's place, but you have way too much in there. Besides the horrible exercise selection, the 2 second negative and one second pause at bottom is ridiculous advice. Everything you wrote is pretty much based on time under tension and bodybuilding style which is certainly not going to be the best for performance, nor for dealing with soreness.

 

[Leify]

Mass gain; the key to success in athletic endeavors the world 'round. /s

Hypertrophy is a worthless endeavor to strive for in isolation if you're trying to actually improve performance. Strength and power are not, for most any sport with anaerobic components.

OP, go to the S&C forum, read the FAQ. Soreness dissipates under many good lifting routines, although feeling "flat" isn't uncommon when weight gets heavy, if you're normally an explosive person.

My personal experience is that since I typically train BJJ 6-7 times a week, I keep my lifting to twice a week, and run for distance another 2 times a week. I run a simple A/B routine, with squatting on both days, and alternating compound lifts. Any more lifting and I typically end up with lots of CNS fatigue with that workload and performance all around suffers. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Allan san]

I used to do my major lifts 3 times a week. The 5x5 program is great for those that just want to do a little extra without killing themselves.

 

[cjd]

The drawback to simple powerliting programs such as starting strength is you will eventually develop imbalances that can cause injury.

You do only squats for legs, your hamstrings will be overpowered by quads and you got no calves.

If you are doing LBBS, per SS, your hamstrings and glutes will get massive, not your quads

 

[jack36767]

I depend on the strength coach I used in high school and college who trained David Taylor. Other than him the stuff by Pavel or Steve Maxwell will give you the best advice for how to lift/train for grappling arts...IMO obviously.

The stuff I learned from Pavel's books saved my shoulders and career and Maxwell's joint mobility has been doing wonders for my body after wrestling

 

[TehGwarch]

Why in the world would you have someone training for performance training like a bodybuilder? Calf raises? Leg curls? Assistance work has it's place, but you have way too much in there. Besides the horrible exercise selection, the 2 second negative and one second pause at bottom is ridiculous advice. Everything you wrote is pretty much based on time under tension and bodybuilding style which is certainly not going to be the best for performance, nor for dealing with soreness.

If you want to move up a weight class it would...or not look be the typical weak sauce bjj hipster. Maybe you're a 135lb girly man who wants to stop getting smashed in the gym by 225lb white belts or finally get laid without paying.

I have news for you, most guys in the gym are not athletes, most power lifters can't run a mile without wheezing, it doesn't really matter. Get over yourself.

3x5 is ok, I've done it...it's a beginner program, because of the issues I mentioned. Eventually you hit a wall and develop imbalances. 5x5 is a waste of time, too much volume and time in the gym and also a beginner program. Hey, I've only been lifting longer than you were alive.

If these methods and body weight exercises are so great, how come most BJJ bros are weak non-athletic 150lb dudes with skinny arms and potbellies who can't bench 275? I'm training my athletic high jump bro. He does a .5 second negative and bounces the bar for the explosiveness, these guys are only explosive in the bathroom. lol

Leg curls are a great exercise to target slower twitch fibers after stiff leg deadlifts. Believe it or not, a certain amount of mass in the hamstrings is a good thing to counter all that quad dominant squatting. You know, so you don't injure yourself. lol

If you hate leg curls that much, do stiff leg deadlifts with 3 plates while you listen to Metallica, it still won't make you a man.

Good work champ.

 

[TehGwarch]

If you are doing LBBS, per SS, your hamstrings and glutes will get massive, not your quads

Sure, we all have the same genetics, checks out.

I looked up some of the SS before/after pics and it was pretty funny. They had massive glutes and wonderful breasts. Good thing they aren't going for hypertrophy because that would mess up their athletic potential...lol

Those are actual pics BTW, I wasn't sure if I can post the link because it said NSFW. lol

 

[jack36767]

If you want to move up a weight class it would...or not look be the typical weak sauce bjj hipster. Maybe you're a 135lb girly man who wants to stop getting smashed in the gym by 225lb white belts or finally get laid without paying.

I have news for you, most guys in the gym are not athletes, most power lifters can't run a mile without wheezing, it doesn't really matter. Get over yourself.

3x5 is ok, I've done it...it's a beginner program, because of the issues I mentioned. Eventually you hit a wall and develop imbalances. 5x5 is a waste of time, too much volume and time in the gym and also a beginner program. Hey, I've only been lifting longer than you were alive.

If these methods and body weight exercises are so great, how come most BJJ bros are weak non-athletic 150lb dudes with skinny arms and potbellies who can't bench 275? I'm training my athletic high jump bro. He does a .5 second negative and bounces the bar for the explosiveness, these guys are only explosive in the bathroom. lol

Leg curls are a great exercise to target slower twitch fibers after stiff leg deadlifts. Believe it or not, a certain amount of mass in the hamstrings is a good thing to counter all that quad dominant squatting. You know, so you don't injure yourself. lol

If you hate leg curls that much, do stiff leg deadlifts with 3 plates while you listen to Metallica, it still won't make you a man.

Good work champ.

Not really commenting on what you said to that person, but I prefer deadlift or swings, rather than squat for performance

 

[TehGwarch]

Not really commenting on what you said to that person, but I prefer deadlift or swings, rather than squat for performance

I just a do one set of each, improve both numbers and don't worry which is better.

 

[jack36767]

I just a do one set of each, improve both numbers and don't worry which is better.

I never worried about getting bigger just stronger so I focused on heavy sets, low reps and doing lifts like pull-ups and deadlifts perfect, low gear strength is entirely underrated, my mat strength is very high, completely irregardless to my technique level

 

[j123]

I've ran a hybrid 5/3/1 and PHUL (4 day Upper/Lower split) while actively doing MMA, MT, BJJ, etc. Of course, as I get deeper into the camp I end up dropping to the usual 5/3/1 + MMA 2 days.