Having a bladed stance

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by dhester23, May 15, 2012.

  1. dhester23 White Belt

    dhester23
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    I recently have changed my stance to be more bladed and not as squared as it was, I'm am orthodox fighter and while practicing I have noticed that it seems that when I'm trying to slip to the outside of a right cross it is taking a bit too much time. I can still slip it with decent speed by I'm worried about when I come across a faster fighter if I will be able to. Is this just because I'm not slipping fast enough or is by being in a more bladed stance forcing me to not slip the cross but just shoulder roll it. Thanks a lot.
     
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  2. Discipulus Black Belt

    Discipulus
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    What's your footwork like for the slip? Are you just trying to lean? It's a much quicker and more balance movement if you turn your rear foot and sit down into it a little bit, like throwing a cross of your own.
     
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  3. dhester23 White Belt

    dhester23
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    Yeah I'm not trying to lean, I'm turning like I would be when throwing a cross but it just seems like its taking a while for me to get my shoudlers around that way.
     
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  4. Sinister Doctor of Doom

    Sinister
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    If your stance is right, you shouldn't need to be fast to slip across. It's an opponent attacking you with his furthest weapon, at a far point. You should see that cross coming a mile away if they don't distract you first. It's tough to say what's wrong without an actual image, but if your stance is right this shouldn't be a problem, you shouldn't be close enough to the guy with your face to get hit by a cross outright.
     
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  5. dhester23 White Belt

    dhester23
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    I think I might just be waiting a little to long to start the slip or maybe I'm just not used to slipping a cross as I am a jab in the bladed stance because slipping the jab seems so much easier in this stance and I can do it fast so maybe since I'm comparing it to slipping the jab its actually not as slow as I thought.

    Also Sinister, I did switch my stance because of the many benefits I have seen you post about on here about the bladed stance and how the old time fighters had it more as opposed to more recent squared stance and I wanted to ask, I have been watching a lot of videos of fighters like archie moore, charles burley and james toney and have noticed they don't slip the right cross too often or at all and usually when they slip the jab and the cross is coming they just basically bend up or down or in toney's case, shoulder roll the cross. Is what they do better than trying to slip it when fighting out of a more bladed stance? Thanks a lot
     
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    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  6. Sinister Doctor of Doom

    Sinister
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    It all depends on what you want to do AFTER the opponent misses the cross. There's no better or best option. It just depends on what you want your counter-attack to be, or what angle you want next.
     
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  7. Discipulus Black Belt

    Discipulus
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    Was going to say the same thing. You'll be safe just bobbing under the cross or fading it. But slipping it opens you up for that counter left hook to body or head.
     
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  8. IFightUFC100 Banned

    IFightUFC100
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    what exactly is fading? :eek:

    I also have a problem slipping, anyone have any good videos? ive been told i exagerate it too much but its because I cant seem to slip any punch (or get punched in the neck) trying to do a small movement...
     
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  9. Discipulus Black Belt

    Discipulus
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    Like leaning back away from the punch. Though you shouldn't lean too much. I was taught to drop on the back heel and keep your chin tucked while you drop away from the punch.

    Watch the videos on Floyd Mayweather's pull counter for some incredible examples. Or watch the way all the best Muay Thai fighters dodge head kicks.
     
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  10. UniBlues Guest

    UniBlues


    This is something I have been curious about too, as I'd like more versatility to my head movement than just slipping to my (I'm orthodox) right, pulling back or bobbing/flexing down in response to right hands.

    I analysed James Toney and found he almost exclusivly slips/rolls to his right, using head movement to his own left very rarely/ just enough to remind his opponents that he can still do it. Even then though, I can't recall him slipping outside a cross and drilling them with a liver hook- and I've looked.
    More often, these bladed fighters tend to duck or bob down completly as an alternative to slipping to the right, and they seem to forego their left hooks as an outside-counter to a right-cross.

    George Benton in his fights that I have seen was another example of almost exclusivly slipping and shoulder rolling to his own right. Occasionally, if Benton was squared up against the ropes he might slip outside a right cross- but he would be more square at such a point and even then it was rare. So it generally seems that this defensive manouvere (slipping outside a right cross) is largely taken out of the equation by the bladed stance, or at least made difficult to the point were even its most adept practitioners don't use it.

    That said, I'm sticking with my bladed stance, but I got thinking about this because I was watching some Orlin Norris- another cagey 'cute' fighter from the 90's. His style is not bladed like a Toney or Benton- in fact he is often fairly square on- but he moves his head around alot and slips outside right crosses to use counter left hands very well so far as I can see.

    Curiously, his pet defensive move is to lean forward and to his own left- apperently giving up his own liver. Why don't more bladed-stanced fighters do this? The obvious answer- they don't want their livers pulped is probably the reason, yet I've not seen Norris' liver been crushed in the way that I 'feel' mine would be if I tried this! Watch Norris responding to Tony Tucker's jabs here in the opening round at 5:20- 5:35 for an example, plenty more further in.

    Tony Tucker | Orlin Norris 1/5 - YouTube

    So my question is, does blading yourself mean that to a large extent your giving up on slipping outside right crosses, to instead fade with or shoulder roll or slip to your own right? It just seems more natural to move with the force of the punch, especially if your opponent is throwing a quick right hand or so close that it doesn't give you much reaction time. Getting snotted by a right hand you've moved into isnt fun when dissapating its force is so much easier- but I keep trying to bring back the counter liver hook that i had in my repetoir when I was less bladed. Back then, it was just a matter of flexing onto the left foot and slipping the right hand, and whipping in my favourite punch.

    So, thoughts on the above?
    Am I too 'bladed' (I don't think so) or is it jsut a matter of learning how these motions in the new stance (I don't think so either).
    Or, is the reason that James Toney, George Benton, Walcott, Burley and other bladed stance fighters don't slip outside right hands is because thats just a part and parcel of the stance. Am I being too greedy in wanting to have an Orlin Norris-esque range of motion to my left as well as a Toney-esque range of motion to my right!!

    Let me know your thoughts and experiences.
     
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  11. Sinister Doctor of Doom

    Sinister
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    Burley slipped outside of crosses plenty. Benton and Toney, even Walcott just had moves off the slip they liked. Left hook, overhand right for Toney and Walcott, Georgie liked his left hook a lot as well. The punch is easier to land as a counter if you slip to the inside. When your hand comes up, the instinctive response of the opposition is to pull back, right into firing range of the right.

    Orlin was a decent fighter for the day, but he was not his Brother. Hence he didn't make it to quite the same notoriety. He had more than a few liabilities which involve little habits of sheer laziness. Leaning so far onto that front foot with his front heel down is one of them.

    If you want to see a guy who slipped either direction and with better positioning, Napoles is a better example. So was Jose Stable.
     
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  12. UniBlues Guest

    UniBlues
    Awesome, quicker response than I'd hoped for.

    I guess then, that if these fighters are slipping outside right hands that the problem I have is mine. I'll have to have a re-look at my balance and mabye try and groove some better timing on the slip to the left, its just that when I read the other poster/TS I thought that my problems had a stanced-based explanation. Shifting the balme as always, Ha ha.

    Thanks Sinister, I'll look at Napoles- I've never really sussed him out although I do know who he is...never heard of Stable so I'm gald for the more material to work from. Thanks.:)
     
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  13. Sinister Doctor of Doom

    Sinister
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    One of the issues that could be in the stance is if your back foot is TOO sideways. Some people let it veer off to an almost perpendicular angle, while having their front foot also turned a little sideways. So it's not an L-stance, the feet are at different angles. This would make you WANT to favor the side of your power hand. If you straighten the back foot out a little, then slipping to your lead hand becomes substantially easier.

    But in Dadi's Burley video, there's a slow-mo demonstration of him slipping a cross to the outside if memory serves me.
     
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  14. UniBlues Guest

    UniBlues
    That is exactly what I'd been doing, taking a really L-stance with the rear foot out at a 90 degree angle. And just feeling it out with a straighter foot placement tells me that your absolutely right- slipping left is easier with a more subtle foot positioning. Its amazing that such a (seemingly) small wrinkle can create such a change in your body mechanics...but I'm sure you've solved the problem for me- thanks a million.:D

    Now all I need to do is work that adjustment back into the ring...looks like I took the blading of the feet just a tad too far.

    Yep, at 1:25 and then again in slow-mo at 1:30 for idiots like me who missed it the first time.:redface:
     
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  15. barnowl Green Belt

    barnowl
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    That much foot turn out changes the alignment of the hips. TKD style kickers like it becuase it make raising and lowering the lead hip quicker, but it does do bad things to boxer style movement.
     
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