Have either JDS or Cain surpassed Fedor? Can they still?

[SeattleFightFan]

it's a silly debate, but here's my $.02:

if you ask 100 fans before a fight "is he GOAT" and 50 say yes, then the fighter loses, and you ask again "is he GOAT" and 15 say yes, then you just proved that at least 35 people out of 100 are morons, ignorant, or both.

this is an allegory to what happens when having GOAT discussions about current fighters.

 

[Cherry Brigand]

Here's how you resolve this in your mind:

Ask yourself, is Cain or JDS in the running for all time GOAT?

If the answer is no, then they have not surpassed Fedor at Heavyweight. Fedor is in the discussion for ALL TIME GOAT with maybe 2-5 others. JDS and Cain are not even in the conversation.

 

[Aluminati]

No and No

 

[phatron]

it's a silly debate, but here's my $.02:

if you ask 100 fans before a fight "is he GOAT" and 50 say yes, then the fighter loses, and you ask again "is he GOAT" and 15 say yes, then you just proved that at least 35 people out of 100 are morons, ignorant, or both.

this is an allegory to what happens when having GOAT discussions about current fighters.

To add to this, newer fans or fans who came in when fedor lost to hendo and werdum just seem to completely discount him because they didn't live through it. It's the same in all sports though, each generation believes their guys are better than the last generation guys.

Ask a 50 year old who the NBA goat is and they'll same Jordan, 40 year old Kobe, 30 year old Lebron.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

To add to this, newer fans or fans who came in when fedor lost to hendo and werdum just seem to completely discount him because they didn't live through it. It's the same in all sports though, each generation believes their guys are better than the last generation guys.

Ask a 50 year old who the NBA goat is and they'll same Jordan, 40 year old Kobe, 30 year old Lebron.

in 1950, sportswriters were asked who the greatest athlete of the 20th century was. Jim Thorpe came in 1st, Babe Ruth 2nd.
in 2000, sportswriters were asked the same question. Jim Thorpe came in 7th, Babe Ruth in 2nd.

Thorpe's accomplishments were known by all in 1950, and unknown or disregarded by many in 2000. and yet Babe Ruth's legend continued to grow.

 

[phatron]

in 1950, sportswriters were asked who the greatest athlete of the 20th century was. Jim Thorpe came in 1st, Babe Ruth 2nd.
in 2000, sportswriters were asked the same question. Jim Thorpe came in 7th, Babe Ruth in 2nd.

Thorpe's accomplishments were known by all in 1950, and unknown or disregarded by many in 2000.

I've never even heard of thorpe

 

[SeattleFightFan]

I've never even heard of thorpe

doh!

 

[Deleted member 501827]

No they havent and no they cant. Not with the way their bodies have broken down. Both are already on the decline and on their way out.

 

[MyEnglishIsPeperoni]

 

[MyEnglishIsPeperoni]

To add to this, newer fans or fans who came in when fedor lost to hendo and werdum just seem to completely discount him because they didn't live through it. It's the same in all sports though, each generation believes their guys are better than the last generation guys.

Ask a 50 year old who the NBA goat is and they'll same Jordan, 40 year old Kobe, 30 year old Lebron.

acutally most of the class mates of little brother, think that MJ is till (after watching games etc.) the GOAT. greatness will never be forgotten

 

[Fight Professor]

I agree Fedor is #1. He beat some awesome guys but that record is insanely patted.

Remove the (real) cans and he will still have more legit wins than JDS or Cain.

 

[moreorless87]

in 1950, sportswriters were asked who the greatest athlete of the 20th century was. Jim Thorpe came in 1st, Babe Ruth 2nd.
in 2000, sportswriters were asked the same question. Jim Thorpe came in 7th, Babe Ruth in 2nd.

Thorpe's accomplishments were known by all in 1950, and unknown or disregarded by many in 2000. and yet Babe Ruth's legend continued to grow.

Thrope is of course still very well reguarded and the two men come from different kinds of sporting backgrounds rather than the same sport as would be the case with rival MMA fighters. In Ruth's case I think he's definitely helped by being held up as the supreme player in a still very popular sport, Thrope whilst he played in sports that remain popular wasnt considered at the very top of any of them, his story was more personal which means its harder to keep going.

What I would say as well is that people always talk about fedor suffering from not being in the UFC hype wise relative to other names but what I think these people fail to acknowledge is that UFC hype is very transient. Someone like Anderson was ontop of the world 5 years ago, constantly hyped as the GOAT by the UFC yet when he lost his spot at the top this very quickly stopped. Its always in the UFC's interests to promote todays product as the best ever even if that means downplayiong previously hyped UFC names.

 

[cmw43]

I think Stipe is ahead of JDS and Cain, or nearing it. None of them are close to Fedor, and JDS and Cain don't have enough left to close the gap. Stipe still might, but I don't think he's as good as Fedor was.

Indeed, Stipe may be the (initially underestimated) new breed Cain and Junior were supposed to be.

How do you guys feel Stipe would do against Prime Sergei back when he still had his sambo grappling skills and some of the best hands the division had seen?

He murked Arlovski and Reem first round before they'd been KO'd 15 times each.

Sergei's win over one of the GOAT kickboxers Semmy Schilt was similar to Stipe's win over Hunt.

Ninja was undersized but this was brutal, similar to Stipe Vs Maldonado.

 

[qw3rty]

Remove the (real) cans and he will still have more legit wins than JDS or Cain.

Well that's really subjective
Some people say Hong Man Choi was a legit victory, and some other say he was a can

 

[Vintersorg]

See the title.

I remember a lot of people were convinced that JDS and Cain were on the path to surpassing Fedor's legacy. Some thought they had already done it. How do you think these two stack up to Fedor now?

Cain is not even top 5 of all time. Yes, at his best he is very spectacular and his style is both efficient and attractive to viewers(both MMA experts and general audience). However, how you fight at your absolute best when you're at 100% of your physical abilities is just one of the factors in a big equation. The competition you face(both strength and diversity of styles within the competition) matters a lot, number of fights, how long you lasted on the highest level etc. are all important factors. Some fighters are able to modify their style using their intelligence, by training smart and understanding limitations of their body due to age/injuries/potential surgeries that might have limited their movement in some way and still stay on top for years. He's fought too few opponents, some of them multiple times so it's not as though he faced a wide variety of styles and he has just too few fights to get into top 5, even top 10. As soon as his physical abilities started to decline, you could see that he had no way to compensate with technique because his fighting style relies 90% on cardio and explosiveness. Also, he's super lucky that DC doesn't want to fight him, we'd likely be watching another Hendo vs DC fight.

 

[BigMuffler]

How do you guys feel Stipe would do against Prime Sergei back when he still had his sambo grappling skills and some of the best hands the division had seen?

He murked Arlovski and Reem first round before they'd been KO'd 15 times each.

Sergei's win over one of the GOAT kickboxers Semmy Schilt was similar to Stipe's win over Hunt.

Ninja was undersized but this was brutal, similar to Stipe Vs Maldonado.

Hmm, interesting fight but I'd still favor Stipe due to his wrestling, Sergei had a grappling background but he wasn't so consistent with it so if Stipe got in trouble on the feet I could see him falling back on it, one punch/combo on either side could end it before that though.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

At their peaks both looked capable of going on Fedor esque runs but it never materialised. Before his loss to Cain in their 2nd fight JDS looked maybe 2 years off of matching or surpassing it.

Cain might still have a shot but hes so injury prone. JDS looks completely done and is just a shell of his former self.

 

[BryanTheFighter]

Cain will not do it, he has not faced the level of competition that Fedor faught if we sum it all up, and is too prone to injury, has fight milage after wars with JDS, and probably earned enough money during his active career to be less frequently active even if he was able to be 100% free of injury.

But Fedors and Cains records could not be more opposite when it comes to variation of the type of the opponents, like 80% of the ranked fighters in UFC HW never even got the chance to face Cain, because they just fed him JDS and Bigfoot Silva over and over. There are specific kind of fighters (other then Werdum that Subbed Cain) that could have had skills that could be difficult for Cain, but we will never know because they never got the chance at Cain

Cain has destroyed killers like JDS in his prime (which is probably the 2 most impressive Wins in MMA HW-history ever) and a roided to the gills Brock and so on , but it still can't be compared what Fedor had to endure in PRIDE.

 

[tehMoose]

No and no.

Fedor is the GOAT.

 

[BryanTheFighter]

Cain has like 12 mama fights against only 7 or 8 foes so no

JDS streak to win the HW title was very impressive at the time, I mean who will ever be capable of having so many quality wins in a division where guys generally get finished within 2.