Has the HW division evolved as a whole (last 10 years)?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by george14, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. DesiredUserName

    DesiredUserName Blue Belt

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    ya see. that's your perception at work. reality is A.E. didn't really have THAT many impressive wins. Struve had some plus moments too. Would Aleks have beaten Stipe? possibly on a good day like struve did if he fought him early on. Look I don't know who would win ... but I have no idea why you "can say for sure". In the long run, you fight 10 good guys and once and a while you beat a couple if you are decent. Dilute the talent in 2 orgs, you win more, add that to a couple of quality wins and look better. All I'm sayin' here.
     
  2. revoltub

    revoltub blackwater Belt

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  3. Typrune Goatley

    Typrune Goatley Black Belt

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    Talent wasn't really diluted though. Most of them were in PRIDE. Barnett, Randy, Ricco, Rizzo were the top UFC HWs in 2001 but they all went to PRIDE except for Randy.

    Sylvia and Arlovski ruled from 2004 to 2007 in UFC while PRIDE had all the other top guys.

    Look how competitive shit was back then:

    - Randy and Rizzo have the FOTY in a very close decision in 2001

    - Nog gets beaten up bad by Cro Cop in 2003 but comes back to win by sub in FOTY

    - Nog has an extremely close fight with Sergei in 2004

    - Fedor dominates Nog twice but both are decisions and Nog even rallies back late in their last fight

    - Arlovski and Sylvia go 2-2 against each other

    - Nog and Ricco have a very close fight in 2003 that comes down to judging

    - Fedor beats CC in a decision in 2005

    - Nog and Barnett go 1-1 in 2 very close fights in 2006

    - Aleks and Sergei have a war where both get rocked in 2006

    - Sergei vs Werdum was a very competitive fight in 2005

    - Werdum and Reem have very close fight in PRIDE in 2006 before Werdum gets the sub win. Reem would win the next 2 fights.

    - Nog and Werdum had a very competitive fight in 2006 that went to decision

    -Cro Cop has 3 fights with Barnett from '04 to '06. 1 ends due to injury. The other two are competitive. Especially the 2nd one was very close

    - Fedor had a competitive fight with Hunt in 2006 but it looked like he wasn't trying too hard

    - Hunt and Cro Cop fought in PRIDE and went to decision in close fight

    - Sergei and Reem went 1-1 against each other

    - Werdum vs Arlovski was a boring but very close fight

    -Nog almost got finished by Sylvia but came back to get the sub win

    I am sure there were many other very competitive fights between top guys. Those are just off the top of my head. Every one was very skilled, had good defense and were able to hang with each other. Only guy blowing people out was Fedor (or Barnett subbing Hunt and Sergei, he just had great subs)

    Compare that to now where you only got like 3 or 4 elite HWs and everyone below them have massive holes in their games and are easy pickings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  4. Pakman

    Pakman Silver Belt

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    The thing is, Pride had so many HW’s, that some did look like that. Guys like Herring went from a top 5 HW in the world to maybe being in the top 10 and probably closer to like top 15’ish (where guys like the Nelson/Kongo etc are).

    I’m not saying every fighter from generation A would beat this generation, but, collectively, as a whole, the division was much better a decade+ ago. There were many competitive fights for everyone. Now it’s basically the top couple and that’s it. The rest are trash. Or get hyped to no-end like Francis.
     
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  5. Pakman

    Pakman Silver Belt

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    Yeah you’re clearly just a hater. And it’s pretty obvious that you really did not watch any fights at all.
     
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  6. DRMZ

    DRMZ Green Belt

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    The heavyweight division will always look less refined and technically sound, primarily because the risk/reward ratio of techniques is far greater.

    Simply but, if you get caught Clean by a 265lb fighter, there isn’t much margin for error.
     
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  7. DayV

    DayV Blue Belt

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    Cro Cop just needed to fight in the ring and to be reasonably healthy.

    He loses his kicking game if opponents can move around in big space and stay out of reach, he needs the ring and in there he is one of the best in the world and he can / especially in his prime, beat anyone.
     
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  8. wilKO

    wilKO Green, White & Gold belt

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    HW has gotten worse in the last 15 years.
     
  9. Stevanchez

    Stevanchez Green Belt

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    So, I just kinda want to put a little wrench in the whole, "HWs are so much bigger today" thing. Since 2004, the average height has been 6'3" and the average weight has fluctuated between 245lbs & 253lbs(except 2007 243lbs).

    Current Top 10: Rankings
    1. Miocic 6'4" 246
    2. Ngannou 6'4" 263
    3. Overeem 6'4" 247
    4. Werdum 6'4" 249
    5. Cain 6'1" 242
    6. Dos Santos 6'4" 245
    7. Minakov 6'2" 260
    8. Hunt 5'10" 265
    9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
    10. Barnett 6'3" 256

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 253


    Rankings
    1. Nogueira 6'3" 226
    2. Couture 6'1" 225
    3. Coleman 6'1" 235
    4. Herring 6'4" 254
    5. Rizzo 6'1" 235
    6. Barnett 6'3" 243
    7. Sperry 6'2" 231
    8. Fujita 6'1" 245
    9. Igor 5'8" 228
    10. Schilt 6'11" 261

    Avg. Height= 6'2"
    Avg. Weight= 238

    Rankings
    1. Nogueira 6'3" 234
    2. Barnett 6'3" 246
    3. Rodriguez 6'4" 243
    4. Fedor 5'11" 228
    5. Sapp 6'5" 350
    6. Couture 6'1" 227
    7. Herring 6'4" 250
    8. McGee 6'10" 264
    9. Igor 5'8" 235
    10. Rizzo 6'1" 246

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 252(-Sapp=241)

    Rankings
    1. Fedor 5'11" 233
    2. Nogueira 6'3" 236
    3. Cro Cop 6'2" 225
    4. Barnett 6'3" 250
    5. Sylvia 6'8" 262
    6. Sapp 6'5" 356
    7. Rodriguez 6'4" 246
    8. Herring 6'4" 254
    9. McGee 6'10" 265
    10. Igor 5'8" 220

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 255(-Sapp=243)

    Rankings
    1. Fedor 5'11" 233
    2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
    3. Cro Cop 6'2" 228
    4. Mir 6'3" 253
    5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
    6. Arlovski 6'4" 240
    7. Barnett 6'3" 250
    8. Sergei 6'4" 240
    9. Herring 6'4" 247
    10. Rizzo 6'1" 243

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 245

    Rankings
    1. Fedor 5'11" 233
    2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
    3. Hunt 5'10" 275
    4. Cro Cop 6'2" 220
    5. Barnett 6'3" 250
    6. Mir 6'3" 253
    7. Arlovski 6'4" 241
    8. Sylvia 6'8" 264
    9. Sergei 6'4" 244
    10. Werdum 6'4" 242

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 246

    Rankings
    1. Fedor 5'11" 228
    2. Nogueira 6'3" 242
    3. Cro Cop 6'2" 221
    4. Barnett 6'3" 258
    5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
    6. Hunt 5'10" 290
    7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
    8. Monson 5'10" 240
    9. Vera 6'3" 231
    10. Cruz 6'4" 236

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 245

    Rankings
    1. Fedor 5'11" 235
    2. Couture 6'1" 229
    3. Nogueira 6'3" 241
    4. Sylvia 6'8" 261
    5. Barnett 6'3" 258
    6. Gonzaga 6'2" 252
    7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
    8. Werdum 6'4" 247
    9. Kongo 6'4" 240
    10. Cro Cop 6'2" 230

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 243

    Rankings
    1. Fedor 5'11" 230
    2. Arlovski 6'4" 241
    3. Barnett 6'3" 256
    4. Mir 6'3" 251
    5. Nogueira 6'3" 246
    6. Lesnar 6'3" 265
    7. Couture 6'1" 220
    8. Sylvia 6'8" 265
    9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
    10. Overeem 6'4" 243

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 248

    Rankings
    1. Fedor 5'11" 230
    2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
    3. Mir 6'3" 264
    4. Nogueira 6'3" 241
    5. Rogers 6'6" 264
    6. Barnett 6'3" 248
    7. Arlovski 6'4" 244
    8. Dos Santos 6'4" 236
    9. Cain 6'1" 238
    10. Carwin 6'2" 260

    Avg. Height= 6'3"
    Avg. Weight= 249

    Rankings
    1. Cain 6'1" 244
    2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
    3. Werdum 6'4" 240
    4. Fedor 5'11" 229
    5. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
    6. Carwin 6'2" 265
    7. Mir 6'3" 252
    8. Overeem 6'4" 260
    9. Nogueira 6'3" 233
    10. Silva 6'4" 263

    Avg. Height: 6'3"
    Avg. Weight: 249

    Rankings
    1. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
    2. Cain 6'1" 249
    3. Overeem 6'4" 263
    4. Werdum 6'4" 246
    5. Lesnar 6'3" 265
    6. Carwin 6'2" 254
    7. Mir 6'3" 260
    8. Nogueira 6'3" 240
    9. Barnett 6'3" 261
    10. Cormier 5'11" 247

    Avg. Height: 6'3"
    Avg. Weight: 252

    Rankings
    1. Cain 6'1" 240
    2. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
    3. Overeem 6'4" 263
    4. Werdum 6'4" 246
    5. Cormier 5'11" 238
    6. Mir 6'3" 261
    7. Nogueira 6'3" 243
    8. Silva 6'4" 265
    9. Barnett 6'3" 248
    10. Russow 6'2" 248

    Avg. Height: 6'3"
    Avg. Weight: 249

    Rankings
    1. Cain 6'1" 241
    2. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
    3. Werdum 6'4" 242
    4. Cormier 5'11" 224
    5. Silva 6'4" 264
    6. Barnett 6'3" 252
    7. Mir 6'3" 248
    8. Nogueira 6'3" 243
    9. Browne 6'7" 242
    10. Gonzaga 6'2" 257

    Avg. Height: 6'3"
    Avg. Weight: 245

    Rankings
    1. Cain 6'1" 241
    2. Dos Santos 6'4" 242
    3. Werdum 6'4" 232
    4. Browne 6'7" 243
    5. Hunt 5'10" 264
    6. Miocic 6'4" 243
    7. Arlovski 6'4" 248
    8. Barnett 6'3" 252
    9. Silva 6'4" 264
    10. Nelson 6'0" 260

    Avg. Height: 6'3"
    Avg. Weight: 249

    Rankings
    1. Werdum 6'4" 236
    2. Cain 6'1" 242
    3. Overeem 6'4" 243
    4. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
    5. Miocic 6'4" 243
    6. Arlovski 6'4" 238
    7. Browne 6'7" 237
    8. Rothwell 6'4" 265
    9. Hunt 5'10" 265
    10. Minakov 6'2" 251

    Avg. Height: 6'3"
    Avg. Weight: 246

    Rankings
    1. Miocic 6'4" 246
    2. Werdum 6'4" 240
    3. Cain 6'1" 243
    4. Overeem 6'4" 249
    5. Dos Santos 6'4" 241
    6. Rothwell 6'4" 264
    7. Barnett 6'3" 256
    8. Arlovski 6'4" 238
    9. Minakov 6'2" 258
    10. Lewis 6'3" 265

    Avg. Height: 6'3"
    Avg. Weight: 250
     
  10. Joshua8531

    Joshua8531 Green Belt

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    Sry might not have gotten the whole conversation.
    Not to be an asshole but I do see a huge difference. A huge muscular HW striker (Ngannou) once he gasses hes fucked.

    A huge muscular HW wrestler (Lesnar), his conditioning will be better not throwing but making the fight ugly and ground and pounding.
    (Lesnar/Hunt)

    Unless the wrestler is on queer street early, the longer the fight goes the percentages addressing the outcome would have to shift dramatically.

    Basically Stipe vs Ngannou
    Obviously decades of orienting muscles to different strengths.
    (Striker grappling will wither quicker, Wrestler striking with wither quicker)
     
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  11. Taric

    Taric Gold Belt

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  12. PEDS Help me Post

    PEDS Help me Post Black Belt

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    Wanderlei actually outweighed him in that fight.
     
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  13. PEDS Help me Post

    PEDS Help me Post Black Belt

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    Yeah, cause all of the big athletic Eastern European fighters are playing in the NFL/NBA... right?
     
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  14. PalmStrike

    PalmStrike Green Belt

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    Im thinking that was the point though.

    Mirko was quicker than Wand, a middleweight.

    Mirko-Cro-Cop-2.jpg
     
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  15. PEDS Help me Post

    PEDS Help me Post Black Belt

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    60 lbs of unnecessary weight?

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Final Say

    Final Say So Icey Belt

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    And stipe was faster than Maldonado.
    Which, again, speaks to the evolution of the sport and division.
     
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  17. PEDS Help me Post

    PEDS Help me Post Black Belt

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    uhh.. how?
     
  18. Final Say

    Final Say So Icey Belt

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    Well, at the most base level, there has been an increase in the size of heavyweights. There isn't a single top five heavyweight who could make 205. Also, a top level heavyweight today versus a middleweight would be a complete squash match, just like Stipe v Maldonado. I know fabio isn't a MW but he could've made it for sure. They weren't even sure back then if Wanderlei v Crocop was a mismatch
     
  19. JBJISGOAT

    JBJISGOAT Brown Belt

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    They sure as hell aren’t in the ufc ya dolt.
     
  20. PEDS Help me Post

    PEDS Help me Post Black Belt

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    ... but they're not really any bigger as one poster already just proved less than a page ago in this thread. HWs were bigger in 2009 than they are now.

    Also, bigger doesn't mean better anyway. Almost every #1 for the last 15 years has been around 240 lbs. Almost every big HW that's come along and been touted as this "New Breed" was destroyed by smaller, faster HWs.

    Why are you bringing up Maldonado? He's not a middleweight nor is he a high-level fighter. Rumble would do the same thing to him that Stipe did and Rumble is a LHW.
     
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