Has the HW division evolved as a whole (last 10 years)?

[Bubblun]

Barnett was 6'3 and 250 pounds
Sergei was 6'4 and 242 pounds
Aleks was 6'5 and 260 pounds
Werdum was 6'4 and 245
ArlovskI was 6'4 and 245
Sylvia was 6'7 and 280
Ricco was 6'3 and 240
Mir was 6'3 and 240
Erikson was 6"3 and 320
Hunt was short but 300 pounds
Coleman was 6'1 and 250
Herring was 6'4 and 240

I could go on and on. There were plenty big guys. Just because Fedor, CC and Nog were small doesn't mean everyone else was. Look at today. We have 5'10 and 235 pound DC fighting for the UFC HW title

You gave magically 40 pounds to some guys.

Erikson was 280.
Coleman against Fedor was 224, like Fedor.
Aleks was fat at 260.
Sylvia in shape was around 260, at 280 was a fat slob.

If the top 4 heavyweights would be considered 205ers today and you don't see guys like that anymore, there should be a reason.

Mousasi in a recent interview said that if you give more than 6 pounds to a superior wrestler today you lose the fight.

 

[Pakman]

the evolution of hw may not be as much as other smaller division but you could actually see the difference between the elite pride hw and today elite hw.cro cop is/was a prime example of evolution of mma when he fought in ufc,cro cop was always a one shot ko fighter with little to no footowork, it work for him back in pride but not in ufc or 10 years after.

Cro Cop was a 1 shot KO fighter with no footwork? Huh?

HW has not evolved at all, infact, it’s much worse now than it was years ago.

You’re stupid if you think that todays current crop of HW’s is more skilled than

Fedor
BigNog
Cro Cop
Randy
AA
Barnett
Sergei
Werdum
Aleksander
Herring
Coleman
Sylvia
Ricco
Rizzo
Randleman

^ that was HW’s about 15 years ago. You’re telling me today’s HW division is better than that?

Cain and Stipe, both amazing, JDS, amazing, Werdum is better now than he was years ago skill wise for sure (he was much quicker back in the day obv), props to Alistair for remaining relevant for this long, even Arlovski.

But, you have 2-4 AMAZING fighters and then a HUGE drop off with the rest.

In yesteryear, there was way more depth. And please don’t give me the bs about how MMA has evolved, because guys from yesteryear knew how to strike and grapple with the best of em.

If you want to see what the HW division was all about a decade+ ago, I suggest you go watch Big Nog vs Sergei Kharitonov from the 04 Pride HW GP.

Or Big Nog vs Barnett 1 (or 2) from 06.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

that kind of speaks to the evolution as well, doesnt it?

That is silly to say considering Daniel Cormier is 5'10 and will probably come in at 235 when he fights Stipe.

Cro Cop may have been a small HW but look at all the other huge Heavyweights that were fighting back then. CC had speed, elite striking, great TDD and trained BJJ with Werdum every day

 

[Bubblun]

That is silly to say considering Daniel Cormier is 5'10 and will probably come in at 235 when he fights Stipe.

Cro Cop may have been a small HW but look at all the other huge Heavyweights that were fighting back then. CC had speed, elite striking, great TDD and trained BJJ with Werdum every day

Crocop could very well be the FIRST mma fighter from Croatia, just think about that for a second.
He made a gym in his own basement to train in this new sport.

The best mma fighters still have to come.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

You gave magically 40 pounds to some guys.

Erikson was 280.
Coleman against Fedor was 224, like Fedor.
Aleks was fat at 260.
Sylvia in shape was around 260, at 280 was a fat slob.

If the top 4 heavyweights would be considered 205ers today and you don't see guys like that anymore, there should be a reason.

Mousasi in a recent interview said that if you give more than 6 pounds to a superior wrestler today you lose the fight.

Erikson was absolutely 320 when he first came out but was lighter in his second PRIDE run. Coleman was absolutely 240 to 250 at his best. Sylvia cut down to 265.

All their weights fluctuated but they were all big dudes.

Only successful small HWs back the really were Fedor, Randy and CC.

 

[Final Say]

It speaks to the evolution of weight cutting at LHW and below, it isn't exactly proof that a good 225er couldn't hang at HW today. Look at Conor, RDA, Whittaker, Gastellum etc. "standing Small and Proud."

an evolution nonetheless. it does mean that typically, guys who can physically make 205 will choose to. that means heavyweights are generally bigger guys on average.

That is silly to say considering Daniel Cormier is 5'10 and will probably come in at 235 when he fights Stipe.

Cro Cop may have been a small HW but look at all the other huge Heavyweights that were fighting back then. CC had speed, elite striking, great TDD and trained BJJ with Werdum every day

there are exceptions to every rule. just seems there are going to be less and less exceptions as time goes on, i mean DC is an outlier. almost none (if any) of the top HWs, which DC is not currently, can make 206. change over time is evolution.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Crocop could very well be the FIRST mma fighter from Croatia, just think about that for a second.
He made a gym in his own basement to train in this new sport.

The best mma fighters still have to come.

UFC just had a guy from Africa fight for the HW title and now a LHW! GTFOH

Cro Cop was one of the best kickboxers in the world.

He was an A+ athlete that built amazing TDD.

He was best friends with Werdum. Trained BJJ every day with Werdum. In all his fights, CC has never lost by LNP. He has only been submitted by Nog and Oleinik. He was a top 3 HW in the entire world for about 7 years. He beat Barnett 3x, Aleks, Herring, Igor, Coleman, Randleman, Waterman, Wanderlei, Fujita.

 

[Evangelion]

First and foremost, yes I agree the sport of MMA has evolved. Obviously guys can focus on training full time and dedicate their lives to becoming an MMA fighter. However, I have been seeing a lot of hypothetical "can X compete today" threads, resulting in many saying MMA has evolved too much.

With regards to the HW division, maybe even LHW, I disagree with the evolution. We still see guys like Lewis and Ngannou who are big brawlers. Not to mention, guys like Hunt (43), Overeem (37), Werdum (40), and Arlosvki (39) all come from that era and are still top 10 fighters (to my recollection at least). Maybe I am oblivious, but I genuinely do not see this suppsoed "evolution" among the top fighters in the HW division. Aside from Stipe and healthy Cain of course. Even at LHW, aside from Jones (roids), DC, and Gus, I don't see a huge evolution.

I believe guys like Randy, Cro Cop, Fedor, and Big Nog could all compete today.

NOTE: I'm a pleb and can't add a poll/don't know how.

Who are these 5? Nog, Crocop and maybe Arlovski?

Top ten no order
Fedor
Nog
Crocop
Stipe
Cain
Werdum
Reem
Couture
Jds
Barnett

 

[Bubblun]

UFC just had a guy from Africa fight for the HW title and now a LHW! GTFOH

Cro Cop was one of the best kickboxers in the world.

He was an A+ athlete that built amazing TDD.

He was best friends with Werdum. Trained BJJ every day with Werdum. In all his fights, CC has never lost by LNP. He has only been submitted by Nog and Oleinik. He was a top 3 HW in the entire world for about 7 years. He beat Barnett 3x, Aleks, Herring, Igor, Coleman, Randleman, Waterman, Wanderlei, Fujita.

Crocop top 3 in the world for 7 years only in your fantasy world.
He trained 2 years with Werdum because he was smart enough and serious enough to understand that he needed help to be successful at this mma thing, compared to other kickboxers that tried mma.

I tell you, around Europe at the time mma or bjj gyms were like unicorns, now they are everywhere.
This is called the sport getting bigger.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

We have been hearing about this supposed "new breed" for like 12 years.

Stipe is about to fight a 40 year old 5'10 DC

Before that Stipe defended against Francis Nogroundgameou. Francis has only been training a few years and showed rookie level grappling, sloppy striking and poor cardio. He did show a granite chin, though. I will give him that.

Stipe also fought 37 year old cracked chin Reem and 40 year old Werdum. Also damaged goods JDS. Before that 40 year olds Arlovski and Hunt. All those guys are awesome but they are all way past their physical prime. If the game had evolved so much we would see more new faces at the top.

32 year old #6 ranked UFC HW Derrick Lewis was outlasted by 43 year old PRIDE and K1 vet, Mark Hunt.

I mean, where is the evolution and "new breed?"

Is the game so evolved Francis doesn't even need to train grappling? Is the game so evolved that there are 4 40 year old vets from the PRIDE era still in the top 10? Was that evolution when Stipe held Francis against the fence for 15 minutes? It was a smart, risk-free strategy against a big guy but that was not evolution. We were seeing that 30 years ago.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Crocop top 3 in the world for 7 years only in your fantasy world.
He trained 2 years with Werdum because he was smart enough and serious enough to understand that he needed help to be successful at this mma thing, compared to other kickboxers that tried mma.

I tell you, around Europe at the time mma or bjj gyms were like unicorns, now they are everywhere.
This is called the sport getting bigger.

From 2001 to 2007 CC only lost to Randleman(avenged), Fedor, Nog and Hunt in a pure striking match.

He might not have been ranked until he beat Herring but let's be real, he was a monster from 2001 to 2007. He was ranked #3 for the majority of that time behind only Fedor and Nog.

Werdum always told him he would go back to Brazil the day CC submitted him. CC submitted him one day and Fabricio got on the phone and went back to Brazil that day. It obviously helped him training with Werdum. CC had a very solid ground game. His grappling and striking were both 10x better than Ngannou.

 

[BigMuffler]

We have been hearing about this supposed "new breed" for like 12 years.

Stipe is about to fight a 40 year old 5'10 DC

Before that Stipe defended against Francis Nogroundgameou. Francis has only been training a few years and showed rookie level grappling, sloppy striking and poor cardio. He did show a granite chin, though. I will give him that.

Oh my. lol

 

[No Mas]

the evolution of hw may not be as much as other smaller division but you could actually see the difference between the elite pride hw and today elite hw.cro cop is/was a prime example of evolution of mma when he fought in ufc,cro cop was always a one shot ko fighter with little to no footowork, it work for him back in pride but not in ufc or 10 years after.

You have people like this who probably started watching mma not even in the zuffa era criticize Cro Cop's "footwork" while you have Ngannou currently ranked as the 2nd best HW. It's scary the amount of cognitive dissonance these sheep can have.

 

[JBJISGOAT]

First and foremost, yes I agree the sport of MMA has evolved. Obviously guys can focus on training full time and dedicate their lives to becoming an MMA fighter. However, I have been seeing a lot of hypothetical "can X compete today" threads, resulting in many saying MMA has evolved too much.

With regards to the HW division, maybe even LHW, I disagree with the evolution. We still see guys like Lewis and Ngannou who are big brawlers. Not to mention, guys like Hunt (43), Overeem (37), Werdum (40), and Arlosvki (39) all come from that era and are still top 10 fighters (to my recollection at least). Maybe I am oblivious, but I genuinely do not see this suppsoed "evolution" among the top fighters in the HW division. Aside from Stipe and healthy Cain of course. Even at LHW, aside from Jones (roids), DC, and Gus, I don't see a huge evolution.

I believe guys like Randy, Cro Cop, Fedor, and Big Nog could all compete today.

NOTE: I'm a pleb and can't add a poll/don't know how.

No…it has ALWAYS been a trash division. Big athletic guys play in the nfl or nba…

 

[Typrune Goatley]

You have people like this who probably started watching mma not even in the zuffa era criticize Cro Cop's "footwork" while you have Ngannou currently ranked as the 2nd best HW. It's scary the amount of cognitive dissonance these sheep can have.

Same sheep who believe Ronda was a "once ever athlete that could submit male Bantamweights" and that Francis "hits as hard as a Ford Escort!"

 

[BigMuffler]

Same sheep who believe Ronda was a "once ever athlete that could submit male Bantamweights" and that Francis "hits as hard as a Ford Escort!"

Boo, Ronda is ONCE IN HUMAN HISTORY!!!

WAR3

 

[JBJISGOAT]

Steroids make people better ts.

Usada hurt the already shit division.

 

[Hrvman]

1- Pride's death and UFC's rise :

In the 2000's, the big league was in Japan under Pride rules, in a ring. Now the top fighters are in UFC, with unified ruleset and a cage. Both environment require a different kind of skillset, this is why every comparison between Pride fighters and UFC fighters is dogshit.

2- The size :

Cro Cop, Fedor, Nog, are small heavies. 105 to 115 kg.

In 2010's, with Brock's arrival, the HW's had to put on more mass and stabilized around 120 kg. We have bigger, more athletic fighters, and since 2010, those big animals are also skilled. The perfect exemple is Fedor vs Silva. You have a small guy, thrown in a new environment (the cage) against a guy twice his size who has a little more skills than a Zulu or a Bob Sapp.

When you follow kickboxing, you clearly see that the sport hasn't evolved, it became even worse.
Verhoeven lost to Schilt and decisions Aerts.

But in MMA, it's not that much of an evolution, it's more of those major changes in ruleset, size and environment that make people think the sport has '' evolved ''

Werdum, the Reem, Hunt, Cro Cop are still in the top 15 on fightmatrix in 2018.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

1- Pride's death and UFC's rise :

In the 2000's, the big league was in Japan under Pride rules, in a ring. Now the top fighters are in UFC, with unified ruleset and a cage. Both environment require a different kind of skillset, this is why every comparison between Pride fighters and UFC fighters is dogshit.

2- The size :

Cro Cop, Fedor, Nog, are small heavies. 105 to 115 kg.

In 2010's, with Brock's arrival, the HW's had to put on more mass and stabilized around 120 kg. We have bigger, more athletic fighters, and since 2010, those big animals are also skilled. The perfect exemple is Fedor vs Silva. You have a small guy, thrown in a new environment (the cage) against a guy twice his size who has a little more skills than a Zulu or a Bob Sapp.

When you follow kickboxing, you clearly see that the sport hasn't evolved, it became even worse.
Verhoeven lost to Schilt and decisions Aerts.

But in MMA, it's not that much of an evolution, it's more of those major changes in ruleset, size and environment that make people think the sport has '' evolved ''

Werdum, the Reem, Hunt, Cro Cop are still in the top 15 on fightmatrix in 2018.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but there were plenty big HWs in the mid 2000s.

Barnett was 6'3 and 250 pounds
Sergei was 6'4 and 242 pounds
Aleks was 6'5 and 260 pounds
Werdum was 6'4 and 245
ArlovskI was 6'4 and 245
Sylvia was 6'7 and 280
Ricco was 6'3 and 240
Mir was 6'3 and 240
Erikson was 6"3 and 320
Hunt was short but 300 pounds
Coleman was 6'1 and 250 poujds
Herring was 6'4 and 240 pounds
Kerr was 6'2 and 255 pounds
Schilt was 6'11 and 290 pounds
McGee was 6'10 and 270 pounds

And Nog was 6'4 and sometimes bulked up to 240. The only real successful small HWs were Fedor, Randy and Cro Cop.

 

[george14]

No…it has ALWAYS been a trash division. Big athletic guys play in the nfl or nba…

That's a generalization and also untrue. Plenty of big athletic guys box, weight lift, wrestle, fight MMA, play hockey, baseball etc.