Has Chuck Become the New Ken Shamrock

mirko>anyone said:
You’re the one that pulled your bullshit pedigree of “knowledge”, like you offered anything up other than a bad opinion. Shove it. Shamrock did a good job sitting on Royce for 35 minutes in the second fight, which is a draw per the rules. The “well if there were judges” jargon doesn’t apply, because there weren’t and both guys knew that going in. He got tapped in a minute a year and a half earlier. You wanna call that best in the world? Nah. Ken wasn’t even better than his brother.
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Wow, you're dense, and clearly weren't following the sport. Royce was figured out by 95-96. That's why he left the UFC. He couldn't submit Ken in a rematch and wouldn't have submitted Severn either. The guy who trained Severn after he lost to Royce was actually on the old NHB forums. We had some good discussions but you're so bright and all-knowing that I'm sure you don't need the specifics. Bottom line: Shamrock, Severn and others learned how to deal with the gi, triangle chokes (Severn had never seen one in his first fight), etc. Royce was no longer a threat and was definitely not the best fighter by 95-96. Coleman, Kerr, Frye, etc. weren't on the scene for Shammy-Severn #1 so those were the best fighters.
 
mirko>anyone said:
Don’t say that. Mkt will start convulsing. It’s not him, it’s everyone else dammit!!!
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Triggered little thing, aren't you. Waiting for mom to bring home your meds?
 
mkt said:
Triggered little thing, aren't you. Waiting for mom to bring home your meds?
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Oh gosh, not the “your mom” retort.

Look, I know you work tirelessly to revise history and make “prime” Kenny this beast he never was. Ken is the one that got figured out quickly and all throughout his up and down career. If you want to keep correcting damn near everyone that disagrees with you (and it’s most), feel free. I’ve got nothing against Ken, but when stupid statements are propagated by you and Idonotbelieveit, we will be there to set you straight. You’re welcome.

He did well in pro wrestling and Pancrase (if all those fights were real, and he lost there too) , but he got tapped by a guy half his size in the octagon lol. Then, the game evolved a year or 2 after that. He got thrashed by Tito repeatedly and it wouldn’t have mattered what the year was.

I won’t say it was you, but there was some retard here saying he’d beat prime Lesnar too. This... this only requires ad hominem because legitimate explanation isn’t necessary. I’ll let you, idonotbelieveit and bullet68 have your circle jerk with Shammy and I promise not to intrude. Just be mindful of the fact that your desired narrative will never be consensus. It’s an opinion, and apparently an unpopular one at that.
 
mirko>anyone said:
Oh gosh, not the “your mom” retort.

Look, I know you work tirelessly to revise history and make “prime” Kenny this beast he never was. Ken is the one that got figured out quickly and all throughout his up and down career. If you want to keep correcting damn near everyone that disagrees with you (and it’s most), feel free. I’ve got nothing against Ken, but when stupid statements are propagated by you and Idonotbelieveit, we will be there to set you straight. You’re welcome.

He did well in pro wrestling and Pancrase (if all those fights were real, and he lost there too) , but he got tapped by a guy half his size in the octagon lol. Then, the game evolved a year or 2 after that. He got thrashed by Tito repeatedly and it wouldn’t have mattered what the year was.

I won’t say it was you, but there was some retard here saying he’d beat prime Lesnar too. This... this only requires ad hominem because legitimate explanation isn’t necessary. I’ll let you, idonotbelieveit and bullet68 have your circle jerk with Shammy and I promise not to intrude. Just be mindful of the fact that your desired narrative will never be consensus. It’s an opinion, and apparently an unpopular one at that.
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Instead of rambling for 4 paragraphs of worthless fluff, you could do a bit of research. Your only possible argument for Ken not being the best in 1995 is his fight with Suzuki. Just a bit of research shows that many people think that fight was a work. ou've continued to miss the point. Your line about an ad hom being okay because "because legitimate explanation isn’t necessary" is both sad and laughable. You don't have an argument so you resort to fallacies and assert baseless opinions. Despite your weak rhetorical smoke-and-mirror attempts, that's all there is to this.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/some-old-ken-shamrock-pancrase-fights.2612447/

(From Reddit)
"These two Shamrock/Suzuki fights in Pancrase were works, the first loss came in January 1994 a few months before UFC II in March 1994 which Ken was gonna compete in.

After Ken got submitted in UFC 1 by Royce, Pancrase couldn't risk their foreign top star getting beaten outside their organisation by someone who wasn't one of their own.

So Ken drops the loss to co owner of Pancrase Minoru Suzuki and ends up getting a broken hand(in training for UFC II) which keeps him out of UFC II so it was all for nothing.

Then the second fight comes in May 1995, 2 months before Ken is scheduled to fight Dan Severn at UFC 6 in July 1995. Ken was King of Pancrase and Dan Severn was NWA World Champion (A prestigious Pro Wrestling Title for decades and although not big in the US anymore it was still big in Japan).

So Pancrase spinning off the UWF which was the first realistic style of pro wrestling always called their rivals groups in Japan "fake" and claimed they were legit.

So Ken here as champion of a group that was actually legit in Pancrase, couldn't lose to Dan Severn NWA champion of the rival fake wrestling groups.

So Ken again loses by kneebar to Minoru Suzuki and drops the KOP title and goes on to fight and defeat Dan Severn so again it was all for nothing but Pancrase had to keep themselves looking strong so with Ken wanting to fight outside of their group, these losses were the result for Pancrase to protect themselves.

Now not to say Minoru could never have beaten Ken at any point because years prior in training together Suzuki could submit Ken all the time but by the Pancrase Days the general consensus was that Ken Shamrock with his skills and size/power, was untouchable by any of the other guys on the Pancrase roster.

Ken never lost a legit Pancrase match and his only other Pancrase loss was again a worked loss to the other co-owner of Pancrase Masakatsu Funaki a week before Ken went to fight in UFC 3.

So Ken accounts for half or more of all of Pancrase's straight up worked fights."
 
mkt said:
Instead of rambling for 4 paragraphs of worthless fluff, you could do a bit of research. Your only possible argument for Ken not being the best in 1995 is his fight with Suzuki. Just a bit of research shows that many people think that fight was a work. ou've continued to miss the point. Your line about an ad hom being okay because "because legitimate explanation isn’t necessary" is both sad and laughable. You don't have an argument so you resort to fallacies and assert baseless opinions. Despite your weak rhetorical smoke-and-mirror attempts, that's all there is to this.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/some-old-ken-shamrock-pancrase-fights.2612447/

(From Reddit)
"These two Shamrock/Suzuki fights in Pancrase were works, the first loss came in January 1994 a few months before UFC II in March 1994 which Ken was gonna compete in.

After Ken got submitted in UFC 1 by Royce, Pancrase couldn't risk their foreign top star getting beaten outside their organisation by someone who wasn't one of their own.

So Ken drops the loss to co owner of Pancrase Minoru Suzuki and ends up getting a broken hand(in training for UFC II) which keeps him out of UFC II so it was all for nothing.

Then the second fight comes in May 1995, 2 months before Ken is scheduled to fight Dan Severn at UFC 6 in July 1995. Ken was King of Pancrase and Dan Severn was NWA World Champion (A prestigious Pro Wrestling Title for decades and although not big in the US anymore it was still big in Japan).

So Pancrase spinning off the UWF which was the first realistic style of pro wrestling always called their rivals groups in Japan "fake" and claimed they were legit.

So Ken here as champion of a group that was actually legit in Pancrase, couldn't lose to Dan Severn NWA champion of the rival fake wrestling groups.

So Ken again loses by kneebar to Minoru Suzuki and drops the KOP title and goes on to fight and defeat Dan Severn so again it was all for nothing but Pancrase had to keep themselves looking strong so with Ken wanting to fight outside of their group, these losses were the result for Pancrase to protect themselves.

Now not to say Minoru could never have beaten Ken at any point because years prior in training together Suzuki could submit Ken all the time but by the Pancrase Days the general consensus was that Ken Shamrock with his skills and size/power, was untouchable by any of the other guys on the Pancrase roster.

Ken never lost a legit Pancrase match and his only other Pancrase loss was again a worked loss to the other co-owner of Pancrase Masakatsu Funaki a week before Ken went to fight in UFC 3.

So Ken accounts for half or more of all of Pancrase's straight up worked fights."
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Yeah, I’m not reading any of that. We can agree to disagree.
 
No Chuck shouldn't be compared to Ken because Ken kept on coming back and is still crazy enough to fight even at his age rn. Chuck came back thought the time off would help his chin maybe. It didn't. LOL

If he fights again a few more times then the argument could be made because his chin is fried from being short circuited so much.
 
mkt said:
Instead of rambling for 4 paragraphs of worthless fluff, you could do a bit of research. Your only possible argument for Ken not being the best in 1995 is his fight with Suzuki. Just a bit of research shows that many people think that fight was a work. ou've continued to miss the point. Your line about an ad hom being okay because "because legitimate explanation isn’t necessary" is both sad and laughable. You don't have an argument so you resort to fallacies and assert baseless opinions. Despite your weak rhetorical smoke-and-mirror attempts, that's all there is to this.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/some-old-ken-shamrock-pancrase-fights.2612447/

(From Reddit)
"These two Shamrock/Suzuki fights in Pancrase were works, the first loss came in January 1994 a few months before UFC II in March 1994 which Ken was gonna compete in.

After Ken got submitted in UFC 1 by Royce, Pancrase couldn't risk their foreign top star getting beaten outside their organisation by someone who wasn't one of their own.

So Ken drops the loss to co owner of Pancrase Minoru Suzuki and ends up getting a broken hand(in training for UFC II) which keeps him out of UFC II so it was all for nothing.

Then the second fight comes in May 1995, 2 months before Ken is scheduled to fight Dan Severn at UFC 6 in July 1995. Ken was King of Pancrase and Dan Severn was NWA World Champion (A prestigious Pro Wrestling Title for decades and although not big in the US anymore it was still big in Japan).

So Pancrase spinning off the UWF which was the first realistic style of pro wrestling always called their rivals groups in Japan "fake" and claimed they were legit.

So Ken here as champion of a group that was actually legit in Pancrase, couldn't lose to Dan Severn NWA champion of the rival fake wrestling groups.

So Ken again loses by kneebar to Minoru Suzuki and drops the KOP title and goes on to fight and defeat Dan Severn so again it was all for nothing but Pancrase had to keep themselves looking strong so with Ken wanting to fight outside of their group, these losses were the result for Pancrase to protect themselves.

Now not to say Minoru could never have beaten Ken at any point because years prior in training together Suzuki could submit Ken all the time but by the Pancrase Days the general consensus was that Ken Shamrock with his skills and size/power, was untouchable by any of the other guys on the Pancrase roster.

Ken never lost a legit Pancrase match and his only other Pancrase loss was again a worked loss to the other co-owner of Pancrase Masakatsu Funaki a week before Ken went to fight in UFC 3.

So Ken accounts for half or more of all of Pancrase's straight up worked fights."
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Wasn't his fight with Oleg a work though ? (Same team, no action) and how can his fights with Bus Rutten count when Rutten was a striker forced to learn grappling in an org which was extremely biased towards Grappling and severely limited strikers ? I mean his win over Severin was good and all but it was his only big win at that time which didn't have any weird circumstances

Do you honestly think that Rutten would lose to ken under Vale Tudo Rules? Do you really think that that fight against Oleg wasn't fixed too lol
 
mkt said:
He might. I'd definitely pick Couture (who's 7 years older than Chuck) to beat him. Even 64-year old Severn might beat him at HW (Dan could never cut to 205). Severn was still a decent small org/journeyman fighter in his 50s. Chuck definitely has health issues--it's not just his age.
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Health issues because of excessive drug abuse. Explains everything. I would bet that If youd do a biopsy of his brain or liver cells that Chucks cellular age is much more advanced. He is an old man. Really old.
 
manboy<3 said:
Wasn't his fight with Oleg a work though ? (Same team, no action) and how can his fights with Bus Rutten count when Rutten was a striker forced to learn grappling in an org which was extremely biased towards Grappling and severely limited strikers ? I mean his win over Severin was good and all but it was his only big win at that time which didn't have any weird circumstances

Do you honestly think that Rutten would lose to ken under Vale Tudo Rules? Do you really think that that fight against Oleg wasn't fixed too lol
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I don't think the Oleg fight was fixed but they did train together--I don't remember if it was mostly before or after that fight. "Friend" fights can always be a little weird and inactive. Barnett-Monson is one example. Even if it were fixed, I think Ken would win a similarly boring fight if it was real and they weren't friends.

Under say, UFC rules, Bas would have a better chance, but I still think Ken would have the edge in 94-95. He was the better grappler and could take Bas down....
 
Last edited:
mkt said:
Yep, he was when he submitted Severn in 1995. He even has a better case than Chuck, since there were guys outside the UFC who could likely beat him in his prime (and one did).

Don't argue NHB with someone who was watching it at the time.
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how about Ken in Pancrase,lots of good shit
 
Mkt vs Mirko>Anyone on the undercard of the Golden Boy Promotions: Liddell vs Ken Shamrock Card!
 
mkt said:
I don't think the Oleg fight was fixed but they did train together--I don't remember if it was mostly before or after that fight. "Friend" fights can always be a little weird and inactive. Barnett-Monson is one example. Even if it were fixed, I think Ken would win a similarly boring fight if it was real and they weren't friends.

Under say, UFC rules, Bas would have a better chance, but I still think Ken would have the edge in 94-95. He was the better grappler and could take Bas down....
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They had an agreement not to tap each other in leg locks
 
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