Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

[Mr.Maelstrom]

I think you'll always see guys sinking chokes in on a stunned opponent more often than not. Extremely high level practitioners like Demian Maia are the outlier moreso than the norm.

 

[jcandoitbig]

to answer your question

hell nah, brah

 

[SummerStriker]

1. If every MMA fighter trains something, it's relevant to MMA.
2. The rules do matter. BJJ works better with no gloves or time limits. But most of the apparent loss of effectiveness is about everyone learning it, not the rules.
3. To be a BJJ based fighter in MMA you have to have good TDs. Most pure BJJ guys don't, though the exceptions like Demian Maia prove that a BJJ centric style can still be very effective if you can reliably get guys to the mat.
4. Sport BJJ has developed in a different direction than MMA BJJ, but that doesn't mean MMA BJJ hasn't and isn't developing. It is. You're seeing more leg locking, more non-wrestling oriented TDs (from guys like Maia and Tony Ferguson, for instance), and a greater synthesis of BJJ and wrestling.

In some ways old school BJJ was actually very lazy, in the sense that because only the Gracies and their students knew it you didn't have to work very hard physically or strategically to make it work. It was enough to put someone in your guard because they had no idea how to deal with it, and if you got their back you didn't have to worry about them getting out because they knew no escapes of submission defense. Well, now people know how to deal with old school BJJ so it doesn't work as well, you can't be as strategically lazy. Now you have to figure out how to get to positions where you can submit a knowledgeable opponent while not getting hurt, you have to know how to use your guard not only to submit but mainly to not get hurt until you can get back to a neutral position (because with punches, sorry purists, guard is an inherently inferior position and only a knowledge gap is going to let you win off your back consistently), and when you do get to a dominant position you have to know how to keep it while also doing damage and simultaneously setting up submissions or otherwise your opponent is going to get out. You also can't count on some silly Karate guy just falling into your guard or going down from a crappy single or clinch trip, you have to know how to take down other skilled wrestlers. A lot of the assumptions that made BJJ work so well in UFC 1 are completely false now.

Opportunistic BJJ doesn't work well in modern MMA because most guys are not going to screw up very badly. What you need now is BJJ oriented towards dominating from the start ala BTT/Carlson school. MMA BJJ has evolved towards better TDs and positional control oriented around striking rather than immediately submitting. In other words, it looks more like wrestling. So I guess if you're really interested in having effective BJJ for MMA get better at TDs and start worrying more if you can punch someone without being punched than if you can submit them. The days of a guard dominant, heavily submission oriented style of BJJ in MMA are done. It just doesn't work that well with rough equality of knowledge.

I feel like sport BJJ is much more useful for self defense against unarmed assault than MMA. Not fighting, but self-defense against unarmed opponents, staying on your feet to leave, backing up while hiding behind the jab, and guard work against larger, stronger, less trained people.

"I'm going to drop you, pin and strike, then break your joint while you are effectively helpless." vs. "I'm leaving and if you get in my way or trip me, I'm going to put you to sleep from the bottom."

The later isn't necessarily satisfying to the ego, but it isn't wrong.

I mean, when people train BJJ but aren't fighting MMA, do you really want them learning how to assault people better? It just isn't relevant.

 

[These Two Hands]

I feel like sport BJJ is much more useful for self defense against unarmed assault than MMA. Not fighting, but self-defense against unarmed opponents, staying on your feet to leave, backing up while hiding behind the jab, and guard work against larger, stronger, less trained people.

"I'm going to drop you, pin and strike, then break your joint while you are effectively helpless." vs. "I'm leaving and if you get in my way or trip me, I'm going to put you to sleep from the bottom."

The later isn't necessarily satisfying to the ego, but it isn't wrong.

I mean, when people train BJJ but aren't fighting MMA, do you really want them learning how to assault people better? It just isn't relevant.

I've stood in the docks enough times to agree with you there, brah.

 

[T-Bone]

Although a system and technique(s) are created to help increase the practitioner's chances of winning, at the end of the day its fighting. Technique is meant as a means to reach the end game (winning), its essentially a supplement to the dynamic.

Also, G&P has come a long way since 1993. Its not as simple as sit in top position and rain punches down, there's more to it now. Proper posturing, etc. Sit in guard, with all the weight forward while striking, the guard player will toss you forward with their legs/hips; And thats just one part of the growing system.

G&P has evolved. Agree there. And it is technique. Is it a MA technique?

But imagine how much more entertaining MMA would be if hammer fisting an opponent on the mat was illegal. On the mat, I can see body blows, sure. That'll fonce the athletes to know striking and grappling/submission techniques. I think that improves the sport..

I watched a YouTube video of foot stomping in an MMA fight. I guess it's still legal, but feet have fragile bones. Point it, not all MMA rules are good.

I personally would like to see more technique. But I am no MMA fighter, far from it, and have a lot of respect for MMA athletes.

Just my thoughts.

-T

 

[BJJ_Rage]

G&P has evolved. Agree there. And it is technique. Is it a MA technique?

But imagine how much more entertaining MMA would be if hammer fisting an opponent on the mat was illegal. On the mat, I can see body blows, sure. That'll fonce the athletes to know striking and grappling/submission techniques. I think that improves the sport..

I watched a YouTube video of foot stomping in an MMA fight. I guess it's still legal, but feet have fragile bones. Point it, not all MMA rules are good.

I personally would like to see more technique. But I am no MMA fighter, far from it, and have a lot of respect for MMA athletes.

Just my thoughts.

-T

Mma is a fight not a Kata demo crap.

 

[T-Bone]

Mma is a fight not a Kata demo crap.

When I say technique, I do not mean Kata stuff. I mean "fight technique" stuff like submissions, precision stand up striking... stuff the average Joe cannot do. Not brawling crap like foot stomps, hammer fists to a downed opponent. Etc.

That's why boxing is so cool... precision strikes. No mauling ( unless you're Mike Tyson).

Now that would be entertaining. Using martial arts without brawling crap.

I think I am on the minirity. Will it change? Doubt it. But I'll still watch it.

-T

 

[Gambledub]

When I say technique, I do not mean Kata stuff. I mean "fight technique" stuff like submissions, precision stand up striking... stuff the average Joe cannot do. Not brawling crap like foot stomps, hammer fists to a downed opponent. Etc.

That's why boxing is so cool... precision strikes. No mauling ( unless you're Mike Tyson).

Now that would be entertaining. Using martial arts without brawling crap.

I think I am on the minirity. Will it change? Doubt it. But I'll still watch it.

-T

You think an average Joe could get into a position to hammer fist or foot stomp someone in the UFC?

 

[OoopsaDaisey]

I think grappling in MMA is currently stuck where striking was when people thought certain techniques could never work. It's self-limitation that's preventing the sport from evolving. One day we'll have someone (or multiple someones) who will make "sport" BJJ techniques work in MMA at a high level, and we'll start seeing them used just as often as everything else.

 

[These Two Hands]

G&P has evolved. Agree there. And it is technique. Is it a MA technique?

But imagine how much more entertaining MMA would be if hammer fisting an opponent on the mat was illegal. On the mat, I can see body blows, sure. That'll fonce the athletes to know striking and grappling/submission techniques. I think that improves the sport..

So... B-Class Amateur MMA rules, then?

I watched a YouTube video of foot stomping in an MMA fight. I guess it's still legal, but feet have fragile bones. Point it, not all MMA rules are good.

I personally would like to see more technique. But I am no MMA fighter, far from it, and have a lot of respect for MMA athletes.

Just my thoughts.

-T

I agree the more polished/clean looking strikes tend to make for a more entertaining fight much of the time.

That's why boxing is so cool... precision strikes. No mauling ( unless you're Mike Tyson).

Yeah, it's not like the St Valentine's Day Massacre (LaMotta v Robinson VI) is widely considered one of the greatest and most entertaining bouts of all time, or anything. Fuck brawlers and bully-boxers...

 

[Coconutwater]

Opportunistic BJJ doesn't work well in modern MMA because most guys are not going to screw up very badly.

THIS.

BJJ is most effective on the ignorant. It becomes energy inefficient the minute you're competing with someone of even modest ability. The energy expenditure via isometric contractions and body maneuvering is not worth the effort to "Maybe" catch an opponent slipping. (And I do mean slipping.)

Striking is a more immediate and energy efficient pathway to success in the octagon than using fuel on a strategy that needs a bunch of things to go right, which doesn't often present itself.

 

[Gambledub]

How many people on here say "I don't care about self defense or MMA, I just wanna train sport". lol

But then they make fun of TKD and Aikido guys like they are Royce Gracie but are afraid to do takedowns and would squirm helplessly if someone put them in a standing bear hug.

90% of these people have never been in a real fight.

If I have the option of adding two techniques to my game that are completely equal and one is good for when strikes are involved while the other is not. I will take the technique that works with strikes, other than that I don't really care. I have done the Gracie self defence stuff and I don't plan on doing MMA (at least for a long way away anyway).

I admit, I have made fun of Aikido guys before, but I would respect an Aikido practitioner if they showed me evidence that they regularly spar full contact. Other than that screw it. I do actually respect serious TKD practitioners, but I have little respect for their belt system which seems to make it difficult to determine who is a "serious" TKD practitioner. Also I feel like BJJ has a better gameplan on the feet for dealing with strikers than TKD guys have on the ground for dealing with grapplers. Regardless anyone can be dangerous, especially someone who has trained in anything for a significant length of time.

I love takedowns (granted I suck at them) and I'm largely a sport player. And i'm willing to bet, unless the opponent has some serious wrestling or judo chops that I could escape a bear hug lol.

I have also been in more than one real fight and a real self defence situation, and yes there is a difference. And the absolute kicker...

Most of them bank on never encountering a trained fighter when there's more of us than ever walking around.

I love how this implies you are a trained fighter walking around looking to get into fights, so let me flip your argument on you.

How many people that seem to be obsessed with self defence and MMA, seem to never actually practice self defence?

You're probably thinking "wut"?

Like I said, I have done the Gracie self defence curriculum. I learnt a bunch of stuff, what I didn't learn/wasn't told was "keep awareness of your surroundings" or "don't listen to headphones while walking home by yourself at night" which is far more useful than any double leg ever will be.

Isn't it funny self defence guys practice reps on unskilled and non resisting opponents, yet ridicule sport players who train full resistance against skilled opponents by saying they are no better than Aikido guys? Isn't it funny how MMA people think BJJ is invalid when they don't train with strikes, yet how often are they simulating people being glassed in nightclubs or getting attacked by multiple people, and would flail helplessly if someone stabbed them in the face?

90% of the people obsessed with the streets have never realized actual self defence situations are actually exceptionally rare, extremely dangerous and almost impossible to prepare for.

An argument outside a bar, is not a self defence situation it's a fight. People that get into fights are for the most part morons. If you are over your early twenties and continue getting getting in fights, you need to take some anger management classes and get a therapist not a MMA class.

I have been in 1 self defence situation and another situation where someone put hands on me where I had done absolutely nothing and was not prepared. Both times I was sober and both the "attackers" were smashed drunk. I could have handled both of them even if I didn't train. One guy I tripped and ran away, because he kept escalating the violence but was with 3 friends. The other guy I pushed and was so drunk he stumbled and then tripped over his own feet so I walked away. Every other time I used some kind of force (before BJJ) I honestly could have walked away/ignored, I could have avoided the situation by being more aware, or I did something to put myself in that situation.

Also, the Gracie self defence curriculum is pretty flawed at times. Honestly if someone grabs my shirt i'm not going to duck under into a standing hammer lock, i'm going to punch them in the face. It's a far more realistic, simple and higher percentage option.

Also before you say, "well you live in a pussy area" this was all when I lived in what was essentially a slum where 95% of the people were under 25 and lived on less than $400 a week. And at the time, I didn't have a car and I walked everywhere, I also finished work at 11pm when everyone would be heading to nightclubs. I was also involved in drugs for a significant part of my late teens to early twenties.

For that reason I used to carry a knife everywhere I went and I can guarantee there are more people carrying knives around, than people that train. Keep that in mind next time you assume self defence is some badge of honour you can brag about to your training partners or friends. Never assume your training will help you, in reality no martial art or training will, if you can prepare or prep for it then it isn't self defence.

 

[rmongler]

I feel like sport BJJ is much more useful for self defense against unarmed assault than MMA. Not fighting, but self-defense against unarmed opponents, staying on your feet to leave, backing up while hiding behind the jab, and guard work against larger, stronger, less trained people.

"I'm going to drop you, pin and strike, then break your joint while you are effectively helpless." vs. "I'm leaving and if you get in my way or trip me, I'm going to put you to sleep from the bottom."

The later isn't necessarily satisfying to the ego, but it isn't wrong.

I mean, when people train BJJ but aren't fighting MMA, do you really want them learning how to assault people better? It just isn't relevant.

The number one self-defense (read: mutual combat) technique is being able to stay on your feet and not let the other guy knock you over or take you down. And to develop that you gotta...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

THIS.

BJJ is most effective on the ignorant. It becomes energy inefficient the minute you're competing with someone of even modest ability. The energy expenditure via isometric contractions and body maneuvering is not worth the effort to "Maybe" catch an opponent slipping. (And I do mean slipping.)

Striking is a more immediate and energy efficient pathway to success in the octagon than using fuel on a strategy that needs a bunch of things to go right, which doesn't often present itself.

you think someone with "modest" skills will be able to stop maia from grapplefucking him? Or jaca, werdum, oliveira, or any elite black belt for that matter? UFC fighters are not "modest" they are pro athletes who live to train and probably spend more time on the mats than most hobbiest black belts do.

Modest grappling skills will get your ass raped in the UFC, unless you are facing melvin mahoef type of guy.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

If I have the option of adding two techniques to my game that are completely equal and one is good for when strikes are involved while the other is not. I will take the technique that works with strikes, other than that I don't really care. I have done the Gracie self defence stuff and I don't plan on doing MMA (at least for a long way away anyway).

I admit, I have made fun of Aikido guys before, but I would respect an Aikido practitioner if they showed me evidence that they regularly spar full contact. Other than that screw it. I do actually respect serious TKD practitioners, but I have little respect for their belt system which seems to make it difficult to determine who is a "serious" TKD practitioner. Also I feel like BJJ has a better gameplan on the feet for dealing with strikers than TKD guys have on the ground for dealing with grapplers. Regardless anyone can be dangerous, especially someone who has trained in anything for a significant length of time.

I love takedowns (granted I suck at them) and I'm largely a sport player. And i'm willing to bet, unless the opponent has some serious wrestling or judo chops that I could escape a bear hug lol.

I have also been in more than one real fight and a real self defence situation, and yes there is a difference. And the absolute kicker...



I love how this implies you are a trained fighter walking around looking to get into fights, so let me flip your argument on you.

How many people that seem to be obsessed with self defence and MMA, seem to never actually practice self defence?

You're probably thinking "wut"?

Like I said, I have done the Gracie self defence curriculum. I learnt a bunch of stuff, what I didn't learn/wasn't told was "keep awareness of your surroundings" or "don't listen to headphones while walking home by yourself at night" which is far more useful than any double leg ever will be.

Isn't it funny self defence guys practice reps on unskilled and non resisting opponents, yet ridicule sport players who train full resistance against skilled opponents by saying they are no better than Aikido guys? Isn't it funny how MMA people think BJJ is invalid when they don't train with strikes, yet how often are they simulating people being glassed in nightclubs or getting attacked by multiple people, and would flail helplessly if someone stabbed them in the face?

90% of the people obsessed with the streets have never realized actual self defence situations are actually exceptionally rare, extremely dangerous and almost impossible to prepare for.

An argument outside a bar, is not a self defence situation it's a fight. People that get into fights are for the most part morons. If you are over your early twenties and continue getting getting in fights, you need to take some anger management classes and get a therapist not a MMA class.

I have been in 1 self defence situation and another situation where someone put hands on me where I had done absolutely nothing and was not prepared. Both times I was sober and both the "attackers" were smashed drunk. I could have handled both of them even if I didn't train. One guy I tripped and ran away, because he kept escalating the violence but was with 3 friends. The other guy I pushed and was so drunk he stumbled and then tripped over his own feet so I walked away. Every other time I used some kind of force (before BJJ) I honestly could have walked away/ignored, I could have avoided the situation by being more aware, or I did something to put myself in that situation.

Also, the Gracie self defence curriculum is pretty flawed at times. Honestly if someone grabs my shirt i'm not going to duck under into a standing hammer lock, i'm going to punch them in the face. It's a far more realistic, simple and higher percentage option.

Also before you say, "well you live in a pussy area" this was all when I lived in what was essentially a slum where 95% of the people were under 25 and lived on less than $400 a week. And at the time, I didn't have a car and I walked everywhere, I also finished work at 11pm when everyone would be heading to nightclubs. I was also involved in drugs for a significant part of my late teens to early twenties.

For that reason I used to carry a knife everywhere I went and I can guarantee there are more people carrying knives around, than people that train. Keep that in mind next time you assume self defence is some badge of honour you can brag about to your training partners or friends. Never assume your training will help you, in reality no martial art or training will, if you can prepare or prep for it then it isn't self defence.

400 a week is good money bro...

 

[Gambledub]

400 a week is good money bro...

Not really, plus that's at the upper echelon I would guess most people were living on just over half of that.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Not really, plus that's at the upper echelon I would guess most people were living on just over half of that.

I guess it depends where you live at, downhere, 1600 month is very respectable money.

 

[j123]

I think grappling in MMA is currently stuck where striking was when people thought certain techniques could never work. It's self-limitation that's preventing the sport from evolving. One day we'll have someone (or multiple someones) who will make "sport" BJJ techniques work in MMA at a high level, and we'll start seeing them used just as often as everything else.

Its possible, but for now, I think alot of the "sport" tech. works well because of the Gi. With no-gi it becomes significantly difficult, and risky as well (not exactly good to hang out too long) Eg. spider and DLR. Despite how I feel about it, punching does change the dynamic alot.

 

[jack36767]

I guess it depends where you live at, downhere, 1600 month is very respectable money.

It's relative man, bills are higher in Western Countries/Australia/New Zealand, and cost of living varies. The bad area in one city might cost more than a good area in another

 

[jack36767]

When I say technique, I do not mean Kata stuff. I mean "fight technique" stuff like submissions, precision stand up striking... stuff the average Joe cannot do. Not brawling crap like foot stomps, hammer fists to a downed opponent. Etc.

That's why boxing is so cool... precision strikes. No mauling ( unless you're Mike Tyson).

Now that would be entertaining. Using martial arts without brawling crap.

I think I am on the minirity. Will it change? Doubt it. But I'll still watch it.

-T

Mike Tyson wasn't a "mauler".....
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/mike-tyson-the-panic-the-slip-and-the-counter
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/a-brutally-honest-look-at-mike-tyson-versus-muhammad-ali
Neither was Foreman if you mention him...
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/the-rumble-in-the-jungle-forty-years-on
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/george-foreman-student-of-the-greats