Has BJJ Stopped evolving for MMA?

And a lot of people break their hands throwing punches in street fights. There were broken hands in UFC 1. Even professional boxers break their hands when they throw a punch without gloves. Take away the gloves, and you will see a DRAMATIC drop in the number of punches thrown and the types of punches thrown. You will see less hook punches and wild haymaker style punches. Bare fists and hard heads do not mix well.

I have grappled in MMA gloves. It is like trying to swim for time wearing levis and tennis shoes.

Where I train, we incorporate strikes from certain dominant position and for the most part they are often demonstrated as open hand palm strikes, hammerfists or elbows. I'm pretty sure you see the same thing in old Gracie Challenge fights. Any hand strike to the head is throws with something other than a fist (fists only being used against the body).
 
Want to make BJJ relevant in MMA? Simple, really. Make MMA fights adhere to the definition of Mixed Martial Arts.

Hammer fisting an opponent on the mat? That's brawling, not a MA.

Wrestling? Not a martial art.
Oh Sherdog, you are too much today.
 
1. If every MMA fighter trains something, it's relevant to MMA.
2. The rules do matter. BJJ works better with no gloves or time limits. But most of the apparent loss of effectiveness is about everyone learning it, not the rules.
3. To be a BJJ based fighter in MMA you have to have good TDs. Most pure BJJ guys don't, though the exceptions like Demian Maia prove that a BJJ centric style can still be very effective if you can reliably get guys to the mat.
4. Sport BJJ has developed in a different direction than MMA BJJ, but that doesn't mean MMA BJJ hasn't and isn't developing. It is. You're seeing more leg locking, more non-wrestling oriented TDs (from guys like Maia and Tony Ferguson, for instance), and a greater synthesis of BJJ and wrestling.

In some ways old school BJJ was actually very lazy, in the sense that because only the Gracies and their students knew it you didn't have to work very hard physically or strategically to make it work. It was enough to put someone in your guard because they had no idea how to deal with it, and if you got their back you didn't have to worry about them getting out because they knew no escapes of submission defense. Well, now people know how to deal with old school BJJ so it doesn't work as well, you can't be as strategically lazy. Now you have to figure out how to get to positions where you can submit a knowledgeable opponent while not getting hurt, you have to know how to use your guard not only to submit but mainly to not get hurt until you can get back to a neutral position (because with punches, sorry purists, guard is an inherently inferior position and only a knowledge gap is going to let you win off your back consistently), and when you do get to a dominant position you have to know how to keep it while also doing damage and simultaneously setting up submissions or otherwise your opponent is going to get out. You also can't count on some silly Karate guy just falling into your guard or going down from a crappy single or clinch trip, you have to know how to take down other skilled wrestlers. A lot of the assumptions that made BJJ work so well in UFC 1 are completely false now.

Opportunistic BJJ doesn't work well in modern MMA because most guys are not going to screw up very badly. What you need now is BJJ oriented towards dominating from the start ala BTT/Carlson school. MMA BJJ has evolved towards better TDs and positional control oriented around striking rather than immediately submitting. In other words, it looks more like wrestling. So I guess if you're really interested in having effective BJJ for MMA get better at TDs and start worrying more if you can punch someone without being punched than if you can submit them. The days of a guard dominant, heavily submission oriented style of BJJ in MMA are done. It just doesn't work that well with rough equality of knowledge.
 
Want to make BJJ relevant in MMA? Simple, really. Make MMA fights adhere to the definition of Mixed Martial Arts.

Hammer fisting an opponent on the mat? That's brawling, not a MA.

Wrestling? Not a martial art.

I watched UFC when it first started... it's a different sport today. But to be honest, fans like to see knockouts vs submisdoons. And the rules and equipment changed to favor striking.

Maybe we should call it BAMA fir Brawling And Martial Arts.

-T
ahh so the whole point of traditional "martial arts" before they came to the US and were modified to be appealing to suburban church moms wasn't to gouge your opponents eyes out..and/or kick them in the groin to end conflict as quickly as possible...it was always a noble thing. And the Gracies didn't build their name on winning street brawls and bringing in their gang to challenge another gang (dojo storming). Yeah that all expressed the "proper" attitude of martial arts.

And wrestling isn't a martial art at all...good one. Stop confusing a ruleset you would prefer and would favor bjj for not being a brawl/brutality or truly expressing the nonexistent in real life cult aspects of "martial arts". Dude its a FIGHT, it's primal and violent, and in that violence you see beautiful technique, heart and respect...but don't ever pretend the sport isn't or ever wasn't brutality and violence. But hey "hammer fisting" is 'brawling' not martial arts. And it's not a martial art if it wasn't taught by someone wearing a medieval Japanese peasant outfit :rolleyes:
 
Want to make BJJ relevant in MMA? Simple, really. Make MMA fights adhere to the definition of Mixed Martial Arts.

Hammer fisting an opponent on the mat? That's brawling, not a MA.

Wrestling? Not a martial art.

I watched UFC when it first started... it's a different sport today. But to be honest, fans like to see knockouts vs submisdoons. And the rules and equipment changed to favor striking.

Maybe we should call it BAMA fir Brawling And Martial Arts.

-T

This fucking guy. Wrestling is the oldest martial art in the world, practiced in every culture in the world. What, you need thick pajamas or gloves for something to be a martial art?
 
And a lot of people break their hands throwing punches in street fights. There were broken hands in UFC 1. Even professional boxers break their hands when they throw a punch without gloves. Take away the gloves, and you will see a DRAMATIC drop in the number of punches thrown and the types of punches thrown. You will see less hook punches and wild haymaker style punches. Bare fists and hard heads do not mix well.

I have grappled in MMA gloves. It is like trying to swim for time wearing levis and tennis shoes.

Right...
 
Oh Sherdog, you are too much today.

You're right. That other thread caused too much type time. And this one was just too controversial. Gonna lay off for a bit.


As to other responses (ain't gonna multi QUOTE), I did not think wrestling was a MA. If it is, no worries, then it is.

Does it bother that BJJ is not as prevalent in MMA compared to striking? Nope. I prefer to see knockouts. That's why boxing is so exciting.

Although I still believe hammer fisting an opponent on the mat as a bad rule.

-T
 
Fighting is fighting.

Throwing a hammerfist on the ground is as much of fighting as a jab is, and is much of fighting as a spinning hook kick is.
 
I feel like also, some guys are being handed belts, just because they are a high profile MMA Fighter.

Side note, why doesn't anyone use Half Guard, like Lucas Leite style?
 
I feel like also, some guys are being handed belts, just because they are a high profile MMA Fighter.

Side note, why doesn't anyone use Half Guard, like Lucas Leite style?

Maia uses that half guard a bunch when he's on the bottom

1VsuI7Y.gif


Also I've always found it strange how people consider Muay Thai a martial art, but not wrestling.
 
Maia uses that half guard a bunch when he's on the bottom

1VsuI7Y.gif


Also I've always found it strange how people consider Muay Thai a martial art, but not wrestling.
The striking aspect I guess. Its the same when grapplers occassionaly mention about training for an upcoming fight (eg. BJJ tourney), and strikers loose their shit, saying its not "fighting"

Want to make BJJ relevant in MMA? Simple, really. Make MMA fights adhere to the definition of Mixed Martial Arts.

Hammer fisting an opponent on the mat? That's brawling, not a MA.

Wrestling? Not a martial art.

I watched UFC when it first started... it's a different sport today. But to be honest, fans like to see knockouts vs submisdoons. And the rules and equipment changed to favor striking.

Maybe we should call it BAMA fir Brawling And Martial Arts.

-T

Although a system and technique(s) are created to help increase the practitioner's chances of winning, at the end of the day its fighting. Technique is meant as a means to reach the end game (winning), its essentially a supplement to the dynamic.

Also, G&P has come a long way since 1993. Its not as simple as sit in top position and rain punches down, there's more to it now. Proper posturing, etc. Sit in guard, with all the weight forward while striking, the guard player will toss you forward with their legs/hips; And thats just one part of the growing system.
 
I feel like also, some guys are being handed belts, just because they are a high profile MMA Fighter.

Side note, why doesn't anyone use Half Guard, like Lucas Leite style?

Some guys do, but it's pretty hard since you can get hit in the face while you're trying to set it up. I think it works best in transition where you get taken down and immediately come up on a single ala Leite to start a scramble back to the feet. If you're already on the mat in half guard you're mostly concerned with maintaining enough distance to not get lit up.
 
BJJ is ever evolving. There is no dogma because if something does not work it will be discarded.
 
Some guys do, but it's pretty hard since you can get hit in the face while you're trying to set it up. I think it works best in transition where you get taken down and immediately come up on a single ala Leite to start a scramble back to the feet. If you're already on the mat in half guard you're mostly concerned with maintaining enough distance to not get lit up.

You get what I'm saying, I've been working on trying to play my game with a little light strikes, my partner said its hard for him to do any thing but hammer fist, and even then it's super close to the back of my head.
 
Maia uses that half guard a bunch when he's on the bottom

1VsuI7Y.gif


Also I've always found it strange how people consider Muay Thai a martial art, but not wrestling.

I think Maia has the best game for MMA
 
And a lot of people break their hands throwing punches in street fights. There were broken hands in UFC 1. Even professional boxers break their hands when they throw a punch without gloves. Take away the gloves, and you will see a DRAMATIC drop in the number of punches thrown and the types of punches thrown. You will see less hook punches and wild haymaker style punches. Bare fists and hard heads do not mix well.

I have grappled in MMA gloves. It is like trying to swim for time wearing levis and tennis shoes.

I've mentioned this before, but I've done a bit of bareknuckle boxing before. You really do gotta watch out for the top of the head when you're punching. I used plenty of hooks, but only nice crisp tight hooks in close. You definitely pick your shots a lot more in BKB in my experience.
 
Want to make BJJ relevant in MMA? Simple, really. Make MMA fights adhere to the definition of Mixed Martial Arts.

Hammer fisting an opponent on the mat? That's brawling, not a MA.

Wrestling? Not a martial art.

I watched UFC when it first started... it's a different sport today. But to be honest, fans like to see knockouts vs submisdoons. And the rules and equipment changed to favor striking.

Maybe we should call it BAMA fir Brawling And Martial Arts.

-T
MMA rules already favor grapplers. Gracies helped create some of the rules.
 
You get what I'm saying, I've been working on trying to play my game with a little light strikes, my partner said its hard for him to do any thing but hammer fist, and even then it's super close to the back of my head.

When you start adding strikes, you start loving knee shields in all positions. When I'm rolling MMA the only half guard I'll hang out in for more than a second is Z-guard because that knee shield allows some distance control.
 
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